Israeli Airstrikes on Gaza
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  Israeli Airstrikes on Gaza
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Author Topic: Israeli Airstrikes on Gaza  (Read 22374 times)
dead0man
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« Reply #150 on: January 10, 2009, 07:54:18 PM »

I have to say Israel deserves all this sh**t that it gets in the world. They were the ones who violated the peace treaty
cite?
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Sbane
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« Reply #151 on: January 10, 2009, 07:57:22 PM »

I have to say Israel deserves all this sh**t that it gets in the world. They were the ones who violated the peace treaty
cite?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Already cited in this thread btw, on page 10. Maybe instead of just asking for citations, you should actually read them.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #152 on: January 10, 2009, 08:34:39 PM »

There were some predictably charming scenes at the anti-invasion protest in London earlier (pictures are all over the interwebs, but are the usual disgusting stuff). I still find it strange that the people that organise these demos don't do something about people like that; don't they realise that it makes them look bad?
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Daniel Adams
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« Reply #153 on: January 10, 2009, 09:25:57 PM »
« Edited: January 10, 2009, 09:28:03 PM by Dirty South Lt. Gov. Daniel Adams »

I have to say Israel deserves all this sh**t that it gets in the world. They were the ones who violated the peace treaty
cite?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Already cited in this thread btw, on page 10. Maybe instead of just asking for citations, you should actually read them.
Perhaps you should avoid blindly placing your trust on a single opinion article.

The Israeli "violation" of the peace treaty was self-defensive. It consisted in destroying a tunnel like the one Hamas has used in the past to kidnap Israeli soldiers. The Palestinian that was killed in the raid happened to be a member of Hamas, a fact the author of the article doesn't see fit to mention.

Israel's explanation seems perfectly valid and I don't see why you can't at least entertain the notion that Israel may have been acted in self-defense. Or do Palestinians have an inalienable right to construct underground tunnels into Israel?

Also, surely you agree that the Palestinian reaction to the Israeli raid was disproportionate? Firing thousands of rockets into Israeli civilian areas, including schools and playgrounds, is hardly the appropriate response to the Israeli destruction of a tunnel.
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dead0man
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« Reply #154 on: January 10, 2009, 10:09:43 PM »

I have to say Israel deserves all this sh**t that it gets in the world. They were the ones who violated the peace treaty
cite?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Already cited in this thread btw, on page 10. Maybe instead of just asking for citations, you should actually read them.
That's not a cite, it's an opinion piece.  It mentions some facts about the truce, bring those up individualy and we can talk about them.

You made a claim, I asked for proof, it's not my job to prove it for you.
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Sbane
sbane
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« Reply #155 on: January 11, 2009, 04:58:09 AM »

I have to say Israel deserves all this sh**t that it gets in the world. They were the ones who violated the peace treaty
cite?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Already cited in this thread btw, on page 10. Maybe instead of just asking for citations, you should actually read them.
Perhaps you should avoid blindly placing your trust on a single opinion article.

The Israeli "violation" of the peace treaty was self-defensive. It consisted in destroying a tunnel like the one Hamas has used in the past to kidnap Israeli soldiers. The Palestinian that was killed in the raid happened to be a member of Hamas, a fact the author of the article doesn't see fit to mention.

Israel's explanation seems perfectly valid and I don't see why you can't at least entertain the notion that Israel may have been acted in self-defense. Or do Palestinians have an inalienable right to construct underground tunnels into Israel?

Also, surely you agree that the Palestinian reaction to the Israeli raid was disproportionate? Firing thousands of rockets into Israeli civilian areas, including schools and playgrounds, is hardly the appropriate response to the Israeli destruction of a tunnel.

And yet they did break the peace agreement didn't they. I am not going to nitpick about it, just pointing it out. The larger point is that you will rarely hear it in the media and we have to hear it from "opinion" pieces. And perhaps Hamas's reaction to this incident was disproportionate, no actually it was. But isn't Israel's reaction even more disproportionate than what Hamas did. The rate at which civilians are being killed in Gaza is just staggering. Israel really has fallen to new lows. I do believe they have a right to self defense but what they are doing now is going above and beyond it. I doubt its actually solving anything anyways, just creating more enemies. Yet that is Israel's only option left isn't it. I think we all have to realize that one day the state of Israel will fall and all Arabs and Jews will have to live under one government, and perhaps Jews won't be the majority. Aww how sad.
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Daniel Adams
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« Reply #156 on: January 11, 2009, 11:08:58 AM »

And yet they did break the peace agreement didn't they. I am not going to nitpick about it, just pointing it out. The larger point is that you will rarely hear it in the media and we have to hear it from "opinion" pieces. And perhaps Hamas's reaction to this incident was disproportionate, no actually it was. But isn't Israel's reaction even more disproportionate than what Hamas did. The rate at which civilians are being killed in Gaza is just staggering. Israel really has fallen to new lows. I do believe they have a right to self defense but what they are doing now is going above and beyond it. I doubt its actually solving anything anyways, just creating more enemies. Yet that is Israel's only option left isn't it. I think we all have to realize that one day the state of Israel will fall and all Arabs and Jews will have to live under one government, and perhaps Jews won't be the majority. Aww how sad.
I know it's hard for you to fathom, but get this: innocent civilians die during war! It's unfortunate but unavoidable, even more unavoidable when Hamas intentionally puts innocent civilians in harm's way for propaganda purposes.

Israel has gone to incredible lengths to reduce civilian casualties in Gaza, even at the detriment of their own soldiers. They temporarily halted their attacks to allow civilians to get aid (as Hamas was stealing aid supplies and reselling them), they have given Gazans access to Israeli hospitals, and they even called homes before bombing them to allow civilians to get out! Of course, Hamas has taken advantage of the latter and sends in human shields. It is not Israel's fault that Hamas hides their weapons among civilian populations. The deaths of innocent civilians in Gaza are the responsibility solely of Hamas.
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #157 on: January 11, 2009, 02:00:36 PM »

If I was Israel I'd just push everyone out of Gaza and into the West Bank that doesn't like them. They'd get a ton of crap for it but they would concentrate where they need to focus on.
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Matt Damon™
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« Reply #158 on: January 11, 2009, 02:03:08 PM »

The whole situation is an epic mess that America should stay out of.
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k-onmmunist
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« Reply #159 on: January 11, 2009, 03:28:12 PM »

The whole situation is an epic mess that America should stay out of.

'No foreign entanglements, lets let the Arabs take over and hit us next'
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Sbane
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« Reply #160 on: January 11, 2009, 03:52:37 PM »

And yet they did break the peace agreement didn't they. I am not going to nitpick about it, just pointing it out. The larger point is that you will rarely hear it in the media and we have to hear it from "opinion" pieces. And perhaps Hamas's reaction to this incident was disproportionate, no actually it was. But isn't Israel's reaction even more disproportionate than what Hamas did. The rate at which civilians are being killed in Gaza is just staggering. Israel really has fallen to new lows. I do believe they have a right to self defense but what they are doing now is going above and beyond it. I doubt its actually solving anything anyways, just creating more enemies. Yet that is Israel's only option left isn't it. I think we all have to realize that one day the state of Israel will fall and all Arabs and Jews will have to live under one government, and perhaps Jews won't be the majority. Aww how sad.
I know it's hard for you to fathom, but get this: innocent civilians die during war! It's unfortunate but unavoidable, even more unavoidable when Hamas intentionally puts innocent civilians in harm's way for propaganda purposes.

Israel has gone to incredible lengths to reduce civilian casualties in Gaza, even at the detriment of their own soldiers. They temporarily halted their attacks to allow civilians to get aid (as Hamas was stealing aid supplies and reselling them), they have given Gazans access to Israeli hospitals, and they even called homes before bombing them to allow civilians to get out! Of course, Hamas has taken advantage of the latter and sends in human shields. It is not Israel's fault that Hamas hides their weapons among civilian populations. The deaths of innocent civilians in Gaza are the responsibility solely of Hamas.

Yes some civilian casualties are always possible but this time Israel is doing too much, especially bombing UN sanctioned shelters. Hamas is obviously at fault as well but shouldn't Israel be a little more civilized than them. Anyways aren't all the rockets landing in land which Israel gained during war and then kept for "security". It's not as if the rockets are reaching Tel Aviv, Haifa or Jerusalem. Its probably only affecting those dirty settlers, who have as much fault in creating the whole mess as the PLO, Hezbollah and Hamas.
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exnaderite
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« Reply #161 on: January 11, 2009, 03:56:58 PM »

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054491.html

Now some of the settlers who were evicted from Gaza want to return.

I thought that Israelis were living in fear of those rockets. Now they want to live right next to those hotbeds.

Can't have your cake and eat it.
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Daniel Adams
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« Reply #162 on: January 12, 2009, 08:17:55 PM »

And yet they did break the peace agreement didn't they. I am not going to nitpick about it, just pointing it out. The larger point is that you will rarely hear it in the media and we have to hear it from "opinion" pieces. And perhaps Hamas's reaction to this incident was disproportionate, no actually it was. But isn't Israel's reaction even more disproportionate than what Hamas did. The rate at which civilians are being killed in Gaza is just staggering. Israel really has fallen to new lows. I do believe they have a right to self defense but what they are doing now is going above and beyond it. I doubt its actually solving anything anyways, just creating more enemies. Yet that is Israel's only option left isn't it. I think we all have to realize that one day the state of Israel will fall and all Arabs and Jews will have to live under one government, and perhaps Jews won't be the majority. Aww how sad.
I know it's hard for you to fathom, but get this: innocent civilians die during war! It's unfortunate but unavoidable, even more unavoidable when Hamas intentionally puts innocent civilians in harm's way for propaganda purposes.

Israel has gone to incredible lengths to reduce civilian casualties in Gaza, even at the detriment of their own soldiers. They temporarily halted their attacks to allow civilians to get aid (as Hamas was stealing aid supplies and reselling them), they have given Gazans access to Israeli hospitals, and they even called homes before bombing them to allow civilians to get out! Of course, Hamas has taken advantage of the latter and sends in human shields. It is not Israel's fault that Hamas hides their weapons among civilian populations. The deaths of innocent civilians in Gaza are the responsibility solely of Hamas.

Yes some civilian casualties are always possible but this time Israel is doing too much, especially bombing UN sanctioned shelters. Hamas is obviously at fault as well but shouldn't Israel be a little more civilized than them. Anyways aren't all the rockets landing in land which Israel gained during war and then kept for "security". It's not as if the rockets are reaching Tel Aviv, Haifa or Jerusalem. Its probably only affecting those dirty settlers, who have as much fault in creating the whole mess as the PLO, Hezbollah and Hamas.

Only a third of the casualties in Gaza have been civilians. One third! Despite the fact that it is extremely densely populated and that Hamas deliberately puts civilians in harms way. Israel has done more than any nation in history to minimize civilian casualties.

As an aside, it appears the author of your beloved WSJ article is an advocate of a "one-state solution", i.e. the elimination of Israel.
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Yamor
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« Reply #163 on: January 13, 2009, 04:46:42 AM »

By the way, unlike an earlier porter said, the rockets have not been landing in areas captured by Israel in 1967. They have been landing in areas which are part of Israel as much as Tel Aviv is Israel.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #164 on: January 13, 2009, 03:52:30 PM »

By the way, unlike an earlier porter said, the rockets have not been landing in areas captured by Israel in 1967. They have been landing in areas which are part of Israel as much as Tel Aviv is Israel.

Considering that Hamas considers all of Israel illegitimate,  does it really matter?

I have to wonder if the Zionists would ever consent to a return to the 1947 borders?

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« Reply #165 on: January 13, 2009, 04:03:57 PM »

I have to wonder if the Zionists would ever consent to a return to the 1947 borders?

No chance.
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dead0man
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« Reply #166 on: January 13, 2009, 08:48:22 PM »

By the way, unlike an earlier porter said, the rockets have not been landing in areas captured by Israel in 1967. They have been landing in areas which are part of Israel as much as Tel Aviv is Israel.

Considering that Hamas considers all of Israel illegitimate,  does it really matter?

I have to wonder if the Zionists would ever consent to a return to the 1947 borders?


Why would they?  Why should they?  Especially if Hamas admits it won't change anything.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #167 on: January 17, 2009, 04:47:37 PM »

Israel announces unilateral ceasefire from midnight GMT.

Now, let's see if Hamas respond.
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dead0man
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« Reply #168 on: January 18, 2009, 02:29:04 AM »

Clearly this is just a ruse by the Jews to trick the ignorant Pali's into going back outside to tend to their bunny rabbits and peace gardens so they will be easier targets for the evil IDF snipers to pick off.
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Јas
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« Reply #169 on: January 18, 2009, 07:55:17 AM »

Hamas ceasefire

"The group said it would hold fire so long as Israel withdrew all its forces from Gaza Strip within one week."

"The group said the ceasefire would be temporary unless Israel also stopped military action, ended its blockade of the Gaza Strip and opened border crossings between Gaza and Israel."
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Matt Damon™
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« Reply #170 on: January 19, 2009, 02:24:07 PM »

Israel is generally terrible but their strategy of using Gaza as flypaper to purge the islamist wings of palestinian nationalsim has merit. Islamists are more dangerous than secular nationalists.
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« Reply #171 on: January 19, 2009, 02:50:50 PM »

And in the end Israel killed 100x as many people as Hamas did during this time. Now that's certainly a proportional response!
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dead0man
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« Reply #172 on: January 19, 2009, 03:08:46 PM »

What virtue is there in a proportional response?  You'd think the people that keep dying would wise up and stop firing spit balls at the grizzly bear.  The rest of us watching this train wreck aren't coming to their aid no matter how bad the maulings are, especially if they keep up with the spit balls.
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Daniel Adams
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« Reply #173 on: January 19, 2009, 03:14:35 PM »

And in the end Israel killed 100x as many people as Hamas did during this time. Now that's certainly a proportional response!
By that logic, the invasion of Afghanistan was a grossly disproportionate response to the 9/11 attacks. Do you oppose it? Also, the Pacific War against Japan was an extremely "disproportionate" response to Pearl Harbor. Again, do you think it was wrong?
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Earth
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« Reply #174 on: January 19, 2009, 03:26:49 PM »

And in the end Israel killed 100x as many people as Hamas did during this time. Now that's certainly a proportional response!
By that logic, the invasion of Afghanistan was a grossly disproportionate response to the 9/11 attacks. Do you oppose it? Also, the Pacific War against Japan was an extremely "disproportionate" response to Pearl Harbor. Again, do you think it was wrong?

I don't quite understand the need to use "proportionality" as a response, unless we're specifically framing this conflict with the propagandized idea of "self defense" in mind.

To answer your questions above, Dirty South, (although it wasn't directed at me, eh, what the hell) I say yes.
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