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Author Topic: The Lion and the Rose, the II ASOIAF Game (Sign Up - Rules Thread)  (Read 27050 times)
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« Reply #325 on: June 16, 2015, 09:00:44 pm »
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Apparently seeking vengeance for a wife raping sadist madman was less important than acquiring 30,000 swords, the largest bank in the realm, keeping Tyrion's knowledge of Dragons and how to kill them away from Stannis, a coronation by the true leader of the faith, and marraige to the most intelligent and eligible consort in the world Wink

Of course, said madman was still Dany's father, but point taken (still has to be awkward Tongue )
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Garlan Gunter
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« Reply #326 on: June 22, 2015, 03:47:52 am »
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Any chance of the situation update thing soonish...?
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« Reply #327 on: June 22, 2015, 04:21:36 pm »
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I'm going to be gone until next Tuesday, so my orders will be a little late this time around Wink
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« Reply #328 on: June 23, 2015, 12:04:18 am »
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Apologies for the delay, the turn is here!

Badgate, Dereich and Talleyrand will rejoin as Lady Waynwood, Lord Tully and Prince Doran, and in case you missed the detail I clarify once again that by dice rolls Queen Ysilla died after giving birth to a daughter, for practical purposes named Argella Baratheon.

Have fun!
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« Reply #329 on: June 23, 2015, 02:31:15 am »
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understandable with so many new / old players! glad to see the returns
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« Reply #330 on: June 24, 2015, 10:21:59 pm »
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I just wanted to note I've done some changes of the end of the past turn and the beginning of this one, as I had missed some of Mr. X's orders (mainly attacks on the Karhold and Torrhen's Square) and because I was unfair to Garlan given his status had remained virtually the same despite what had happened in the past turns.

With that solved, I feel I should explain to all of you that I am having some trouble due to my university/college being on strike. I do not know for how long this situation will continue (it has been three stressful weeks so far), and that is combined with me wishing to take a trip to my home town to take a much needed rest.

I'm saying this because I have to planify what lies ahead, so please don't take it wrong if I take my time to answer any questions. I will, no doubt, just as the game will continue, but I felt you all deserved to know the reason behind the past delays and mistakes.
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« Reply #331 on: June 25, 2015, 03:43:23 am »
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please don't worry Lumine, real life always has to come first, this isn't life or death and the odd judder doesn't make our turns and stuff any less good when they come!
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« Reply #332 on: June 25, 2015, 05:03:56 am »
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please don't worry Lumine, real life always has to come first, this isn't life or death and the odd judder doesn't make our turns and stuff any less good when they come!

This!
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« Reply #333 on: June 27, 2015, 08:58:54 pm »
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Thanks!

My trip begins tomorrow morning, so I'll be taking a "leave of absence" from the forum as a whole for some days starting now. Hopefully I'll be back soon, so don't forget to send your orders!
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« Reply #334 on: July 06, 2015, 12:07:52 am »
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Right, my trip is not going to end for some days (the strike is still going on), but I can't keep the game frozen for so long. We'll be getting POV's tomorrow, and so far I'm considering Rickon, Bran or Melisandre and an Iron Islands POV (Asha or Aeron Greyjoy, or Desmera Redwyne as a long shot).

I should also note that Fingerbones has not been on the forum since June 22 nor he has sent orders, so that is a matter that does concern me given Daenerys's current role. If he doesn't send any orders or reappears before this turn is over, I may have to take action as with Littlefinger/Walder Frey or leave the position open for a player.
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« Reply #335 on: July 06, 2015, 01:01:54 am »
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Right, my trip is not going to end for some days (the strike is still going on), but I can't keep the game frozen for so long. We'll be getting POV's tomorrow, and so far I'm considering Rickon, Bran or Melisandre and an Iron Islands POV (Asha or Aeron Greyjoy, or Desmera Redwyne as a long shot).

I should also note that Fingerbones has not been on the forum since June 22 nor he has sent orders, so that is a matter that does concern me given Daenerys's current role. If he doesn't send any orders or reappears before this turn is over, I may have to take action as with Littlefinger/Walder Frey or leave the position open for a player.

I'd rather you did it given the key timing unless the player is really good. I mean let's be honest, Daenerys is the only capable or even adult claimant for the throne, and is the only one open to be controlled by a player.
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« Reply #336 on: July 06, 2015, 02:49:16 am »
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As ever, if you want a hand with any POVs...!

I had wondered about Daenerys. Ulp! Taking action as in LF/Walder = killing her off!? Please think of the scaly children!

I may or may not have recruited a very good player interested in being Asha next turn.
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« Reply #337 on: July 06, 2015, 05:28:43 am »
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Right, my trip is not going to end for some days (the strike is still going on), but I can't keep the game frozen for so long. We'll be getting POV's tomorrow, and so far I'm considering Rickon, Bran or Melisandre and an Iron Islands POV (Asha or Aeron Greyjoy, or Desmera Redwyne as a long shot).

I should also note that Fingerbones has not been on the forum since June 22 nor he has sent orders, so that is a matter that does concern me given Daenerys's current role. If he doesn't send any orders or reappears before this turn is over, I may have to take action as with Littlefinger/Walder Frey or leave the position open for a player.

My vote would be to take the Walder/Littlefinger approach, that way you open up Asha for the person Garlan found and we avoid having GameDany dangling about as a loose thread.
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« Reply #338 on: July 06, 2015, 12:35:07 pm »
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Fantastic news, Garlan!

I'm unsure of what route to take, honestly, but there will be a formal decision by the time the turn is over.
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« Reply #339 on: July 06, 2015, 01:40:02 pm »
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Tyrion was put on ice before without being killed, and that clearly ended up helping the game. A thought - Dany and her dragons could be lost, her armies leaderless and her location unknown, a la end of ADWD?

That way if Fingerbones comes back, or another worthy player emerges, or you need Dany as a deus ex modina, we are still good to go

Also I ought to stress my Asha is a maybe! But she's really great and fun and stuff. And quite reliable...
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« Reply #340 on: July 06, 2015, 02:50:06 pm »
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Tyrion was put on ice before without being killed, and that clearly ended up helping the game. A thought - Dany and her dragons could be lost, her armies leaderless and her location unknown, a la end of ADWD?

That way if Fingerbones comes back, or another worthy player emerges, or you need Dany as a deus ex modina, we are still good to go

Also I ought to stress my Asha is a maybe! But she's really great and fun and stuff. And quite reliable...

Eh, we got lucky with Tyrion.  Leaving GameDany alive and just hoping Fingerbones comes back leaves things too much in limbo and unlike with GameTyrion, Fingerbones has already made enough major strategic moves that it wouldn't really be fair to a new player because they'd be forced to take the path another player essentially chose for them.  And Dany isn't really an ideal Deus ex Machina from a story telling standpoint because we already know about her and what she'd likely do in about 90-95% of situations.  Beyond which, it's almost always better to let the remaining players fight it out than it is to rely on a Deus ex Machina of any sort. 
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« Reply #341 on: July 06, 2015, 06:44:43 pm »
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Mmm. Isn't what she'd mainly do go and fry Others? and so isn't your vote a teensy bit self-serving, X? I fully admit mine is too though, as a member of the living and a Targ partisan at that! Personally I vote Benjen her until something (willing player, good mod death opportunity, Fingerbones, whatever) turns up.

But for pity's sake don't kill off those dragons, we really need them to stop the enemy given that there seem to be as many unkillable beings as Renly had peasants in the books...!
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« Reply #342 on: July 06, 2015, 07:11:05 pm »
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Mmm. Isn't what she'd mainly do go and fry Others? and so isn't your vote a teensy bit self-serving, X? I fully admit mine is too though, as a member of the living and a Targ partisan at that! Personally I vote Benjen her until something (willing player, good mod death opportunity, Fingerbones, whatever) turns up.

But for pity's sake don't kill off those dragons, we really need them to stop the enemy given that there seem to be as many unkillable beings as Renly had peasants in the books...!

My vote actually isn't self-serving, even if it happens to benefit me, since I'm not making it with any strategic purpose.  I'd be fine with doing whatever makes for a better story and more interesting game.  I'm pretty sure I've said to both Lumine and Dereich in the past that I've already accomplished like 90% of my goals for the game and am now just having fun ruling over my dystopian fiefdom in the North ("the rest is gravy" is how I believe I put it) Tongue 

I genuinely believe these games are generally a lot more interesting without Dany/if she dies (and still would even if I were playing as an ally of GameDany) because the dragons make her pretty over-powered (remember in the first game, it took an Arryn-Lannister-Stark-Baratheon-Greyjoy alliance to defeat Dany even without her dragons).  The Others have certain weaknesses that can be exploited, but the dragons are basically all-but-invincible.  There's also admittedly an element of personal preference since Dany winning probably means the closest thing to a "happily ever after" ending and that kinda just feels wrong for a GoT game that has been as dark as this one has.  Of course, it's obviously Lumine's call, so I guess we'll find out soon enough.
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« Reply #343 on: July 06, 2015, 07:24:29 pm »
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Mmm. Isn't what she'd mainly do go and fry Others? and so isn't your vote a teensy bit self-serving, X? I fully admit mine is too though, as a member of the living and a Targ partisan at that! Personally I vote Benjen her until something (willing player, good mod death opportunity, Fingerbones, whatever) turns up.

But for pity's sake don't kill off those dragons, we really need them to stop the enemy given that there seem to be as many unkillable beings as Renly had peasants in the books...!

My vote actually isn't self-serving, even if it happens to benefit me, since I'm not making it with any strategic purpose.  I'd be fine with doing whatever makes for a better story and more interesting game.  I'm pretty sure I've said to both Lumine and Dereich in the past that I've already accomplished like 90% of my goals for the game and am now just having fun ruling over my dystopian fiefdom in the North ("the rest is gravy" is how I believe I put it) Tongue 

I genuinely believe these games are generally a lot more interesting without Dany/if she dies (and still would even if I were playing as an ally of GameDany) because the dragons make her pretty over-powered (remember in the first game, it took an Arryn-Lannister-Stark-Baratheon-Greyjoy alliance to defeat Dany even without her dragons).  The Others have certain weaknesses that can be exploited, but the dragons are basically all-but-invincible.  There's also admittedly an element of personal preference since Dany winning probably means the closest thing to a "happily ever after" ending and that kinda just feels wrong for a GoT game that has been as dark as this one has.  Of course, it's obviously Lumine's call, so I guess we'll find out soon enough.

I agree. That's why I started as Aegon - all the Targaryen fun without the OP dragons.
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« Reply #344 on: July 06, 2015, 11:48:45 pm »
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After all of the extreme risks I've taken and steps in a certain direction, as well as it spelling doom for the entire Lannister crew considering the two largest human armies in the game have broken into the west based on actions and advice by Daenerys/Finger bones, by killing or doing away with Daenerys, you are essentially doing away with all of this faction as well, which is why you can't simply kill her off. Also I'd argue adolescent dragons are far less a deus ex machina than an army of the living dead which only grows in strength with time, their main strength is being a morale blow and a rallying cry for armies.

You say Daenerys' new player would be forced into certain decisions, but that's exactly what happened with my character and I've done fine with it lol... I felt I've played my hand pretty well and breathed life into the game considering with a United Westeros under him, Stannis would have surely repelled Daenerys invasion given Tyrion's knowledge of dragons and how to bring them down(coupled with my own ideas). The Lannisters were universally hated by all factions when I took control, and through a deal of effort and time and politicking I've managed to get into a far better position from want seemed like certain and inevitable death for the 4 members remaining in the family.

Dragons are a part of ASOIAF as much as the ice demons from the North are, and Daenerys is one of the "big three", of which one is already dead, and as Daenerys is one of the very few possible riders anyways, doing away with her is doing away with them. GRRM has stated the end of the series would be bittersweet like LOTR, but that characters would survive and it wouldn't be some grim dark ending. Not saying we have to play it like that here, but aside from minor events much of the early part of the game follows with what I think will happen anyways, ie KL getting blown up, Aegon taking power, Stannis making yet another comeback....

Daenerys is far too major a player both figuratively and literally at this point to even consider just killing off. There is far too much at play already, and effectively just hands the reigns to the Vale once Casterly Rock falls, and the odds of them even being in position to stop the others are slim and haphazard at best.an given they still have to pass back out of the West while taking key castles.

Just to note claimants to the seven kingdoms as a whole aside from Daenerys:

1) Shireen
2) Tommen
3) Myrcella
4) Edric
5) Aegon's daughter
6) Stannis' other daughter

All just children with regencies, and none able to truly grasp the iron throne's level of responsibility. It spells pretty certain death for the living I'd say given the lack of good commanders and warriors lol.

Just my two cents, but it's going to feel like this all has been for nothing if she is simply swept under a rug and like I'm being punished for Fingerbones dropping the ball. Me and Garlan will be hung out to dry so to speak hehe, and at this point there isn't room for politics anyways. The undead are coming ffs lol, the only thing that will happen is Targ supporters getting beaten into the ground and a general conglomeration under Shireen of those that remain, who have no obsidian and 4 or so VS swords between them.
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« Reply #345 on: Today at 03:54:09 am »
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Well...personally I'm not wild about either dragons or Others, although I have much enjoyed Ramsay's mad transformation (which does what the books and show fail to do and finally makes the apocalypse relevant to the main plot!)

I do think, though, that if we are to have one, we badly need the (no pun intended) other; and I think if anything the Sidhe are a lot more 'OP', given that after consuming a king, the North, and the Watch there are still (am I right?) 90,800 of 'em - more than everyone else's forces put together - only killable by rare weapons, plus wights and numerous assorted monstrosities. Even the dragons will need superpowers to stop that. (I doubt very much that there are supposed to be 100,000 actual white walkers in books or TV, though the Sidhe are, I can see, Lumine's decision and meant to be a bit different)

I do agree with Leonardo that Daenerys's case is different from LF and Walder, who had barely influenced the game when they were killed off. We're talking about the most powerful and important player army here. And I don't agree with X that Dany winning necessarily = happily ever after, or that a future Daenerys player would have their hands tied, any more than Leonardo did with Tyrion.

On the other hand, I don't see the relevance of anyone being in the 'big three' (and judging by the forthcoming Mel PoV Leonardo might be being pessimistic about Jon!), nor do I think the death of Dany would ruin the game for her remaining supporters; it would be an interesting crisis to adapt around.

Basically if Dany can't, for now, be 'lost' a la the end of ADWD - after all we have good precedent as to how Barristan tries to sort out that mess in the books, so that would definitely be my preference - and Lumine decides she has to die, then I hope that the dragons survive (to be claimed by squabbling remaining factions?) and/or that her death deals the Others some fairly cool equalising setback in some way (Ramsay's other arm???!)

Obviously it would be best of all if we found a replacement player (or where Fingerbones is hiding) pronto. Alas lumine can't take on the role himself! Varys knows a lot, but surely not as much as the mod...

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« Reply #346 on: Today at 06:34:38 am »
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After all of the extreme risks I've taken and steps in a certain direction, as well as it spelling doom for the entire Lannister crew considering the two largest human armies in the game have broken into the west based on actions and advice by Daenerys/Finger bones, by killing or doing away with Daenerys, you are essentially doing away with all of this faction as well, which is why you can't simply kill her off. Also I'd argue adolescent dragons are far less a deus ex machina than an army of the living dead which only grows in strength with time, their main strength is being a morale blow and a rallying cry for armies.

You say Daenerys' new player would be forced into certain decisions, but that's exactly what happened with my character and I've done fine with it lol... I felt I've played my hand pretty well and breathed life into the game considering with a United Westeros under him, Stannis would have surely repelled Daenerys invasion given Tyrion's knowledge of dragons and how to bring them down(coupled with my own ideas). The Lannisters were universally hated by all factions when I took control, and through a deal of effort and time and politicking I've managed to get into a far better position from want seemed like certain and inevitable death for the 4 members remaining in the family.

Dragons are a part of ASOIAF as much as the ice demons from the North are, and Daenerys is one of the "big three", of which one is already dead, and as Daenerys is one of the very few possible riders anyways, doing away with her is doing away with them. GRRM has stated the end of the series would be bittersweet like LOTR, but that characters would survive and it wouldn't be some grim dark ending. Not saying we have to play it like that here, but aside from minor events much of the early part of the game follows with what I think will happen anyways, ie KL getting blown up, Aegon taking power, Stannis making yet another comeback....

Daenerys is far too major a player both figuratively and literally at this point to even consider just killing off. There is far too much at play already, and effectively just hands the reigns to the Vale once Casterly Rock falls, and the odds of them even being in position to stop the others are slim and haphazard at best.an given they still have to pass back out of the West while taking key castles.

Just to note claimants to the seven kingdoms as a whole aside from Daenerys:

1) Shireen
2) Tommen
3) Myrcella
4) Edric
5) Aegon's daughter
6) Stannis' other daughter

All just children with regencies, and none able to truly grasp the iron throne's level of responsibility. It spells pretty certain death for the living I'd say given the lack of good commanders and warriors lol.

Just my two cents, but it's going to feel like this all has been for nothing if she is simply swept under a rug and like I'm being punished for Fingerbones dropping the ball. Me and Garlan will be hung out to dry so to speak hehe, and at this point there isn't room for politics anyways. The undead are coming ffs lol, the only thing that will happen is Targ supporters getting beaten into the ground and a general conglomeration under Shireen of those that remain, who have no obsidian and 4 or so VS swords between them.

Or the living could...you know...unite against the army of the dead Tongue  Also, as I've said the Others have some severe weaknesses you guys haven't exploited.  In fact, if our situations were reversed, I'm pretty sure I have a way to completely neutralize them as a threat before the end of the turn (not that I'm gonna tell you guys what it is though I can PM it to Lumine to prove that it is legit).  As for the GameLannisters and GameAurane being screwed, I'd argue that really isn't a good reason to spare GameDany (or worse still spare her dragons) nor is it necessarily true (you've both got plenty of viable options). It'd be showing serious favoritism towards one side to spare GameDany just b/c it'd help GameTyrion and GameAurane and that's not really right.

If I've played a good game as Ramsay (remember that I started with basically the worst hand in the game, part of the reason I chose him tbh, and had literally no men at one point), then it should be entirely possible for me to win.  If we're just gonna keep inventing Deus ex Machinas to ensure the Others can't win/prolong the game indefinitely than what's the point?  If we're nearing the end and the Others are on track to win at least a partial victory than there's really nothing wrong with that. Plus more and more players will probably die as we near the end, but that is the nature of the beast.  Tbh, I'm far less interested in World Domination than I am in exploring all the...err...fun possibilities my dystopian fiefdom has to offer Tongue  Beyond which, tree-God Bran, Melisandre, and presumably Azor Ahai floating around.

Lastly, but dealing the Others a severe setback over this would be extremely unfair imo.  Why should I (of all people) be penelized for Fingerbones' inactivity?  I didn't even ally with GameDany Tongue  It only makes sense if you see the Others winning as a fundamentally unacceptable outcome, but if we stack the deck against them than how is that fair?

Maybe I'm wrong (and my apologies if I am), but it seems like a lot of the support for keeping GameDany alive is motivated in no small part by the strategic interests of certain players.  Hence these suggestions like "fine, kill Dany just give one of us her dragons or deal the Sidhe some sort of major setback" neither of which make any sense otherwise.

Edit: Also we've been playing this game for literally over half a year.  It is not unreasonable that we are basically entering the endgame phase and that'd mean it'd make more sense to start looking for ways to wrap things up (ex: killing off GameDany and her dragons) than it would to look for ways to prolong things just to change who wins.

Edit #2: Had the Lannisters aligned with GameStannis, I might very well have lost the battle for Winterfell.  As the knight in Indiana Jones would say, you chose poorly Tongue lol
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« Reply #347 on: Today at 10:26:18 am »
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I love how you are missing the extreme irony in shuffling Daenerys out of the plot while using the term deus ex machina, when it's the best example so far of said term. Daenerys just goes suddenly poof?

And your suggestion the Lannisters and Dornish ally is laughable lol.

Your characterization of Culhrikan and the Others is incorrect if you're not looking at wiping out humanity entirely. From what we've seen in the series

1) The Others do not compromise with humans
2) Ramsay is even less likely to spare humanity

The idea that we should just do it to move things forward is doing the story misjustice as well, as I'd rather have a thrilling and complex tale rather than just humanity vs others, which we have right now with Dany in play.
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« Reply #348 on: Today at 12:13:51 pm »
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I love how you are missing the extreme irony in shuffling Daenerys out of the plot while using the term deus ex machina, when it's the best example so far of said term. Daenerys just goes suddenly poof?

And your suggestion the Lannisters and Dornish ally is laughable lol.

Your characterization of Culhrikan and the Others is incorrect if you're not looking at wiping out humanity entirely. From what we've seen in the series

1) The Others do not compromise with humans
2) Ramsay is even less likely to spare humanity

The idea that we should just do it to move things forward is doing the story misjustice as well, as I'd rather have a thrilling and complex tale rather than just humanity vs others, which we have right now with Dany in play.

I'm pretty sure I deleted the Lannister/Dorne thing right away (or meant to Tongue ) because it didn't make sense, but the point is you and Garlan still have a lot of options.  I also never said anything about compromising with humanity (lol).  I'm not sure where you even got that idea from, but whatever.  Yeah my *top* priority isn't world domination, but as long as I keep it within the bounds of what'd be IC, I can play my character how I want (or prioritize who is wiped out when and how brutally).

We've already had a half-year long (and fairly complex as far as these games go) story, but there is no point inventing Deus ex Machinas to keep dragging things out past what make sense in the context of the game.  It'd be even worse, however, to spare a character simply because his/her survival gives certain players a better chance of winning.  I'd also be nice if you responded to the post instead of straw-maning (the non-sense about compromising with humanity) or focusing on minor things that were edited out (the Dorne thing).

Anyway, I feel like this discussion is getting a bit more antagonistic than it should.  We've both made our views clear, I think we should probably drop it at this point and leave this to Lumine's good judgement. 
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