Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 23, 2014, 03:23:59 am
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Atlas Hardware Upgrade complete October 13, 2013.

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  Election Archive
| |-+  2004 U.S. Presidential Election
| | |-+  Is Wisconsin the bellweather for 2004?
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Print
Author Topic: Is Wisconsin the bellweather for 2004?  (Read 3127 times)
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18305
United States


View Profile
« on: September 24, 2004, 01:23:05 pm »
Ignore

I'll go out on limb and claim that the winner of WI will be the winner of the election.  
Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
elcorazon
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2214


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2004, 01:23:58 pm »
Ignore

I agree with you, although I'm beginning to think Kerry may need Florida in order to win, which looks doubtful to me.
Logged


"The most important thing to remember is, no matter what anybody tells you, it is never, ever unpatriotic or un-American to question anything in a democracy"
J-Mann
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2689
United States


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2004, 01:33:21 pm »
Ignore

Hmmm, you could be right, though I'd say that Wisconsin will mean different things for the two candidates when election night rolls around.  Kerry would likely need it to get over the 270 mark, whereas if Bush wins it, it's more likely to just add to his already significant (note: not landslide) victory.

Does anyone remember CNN calling Kentucky a bellweather in 2000?  Maybe that's because it voted twice for Clinton (barely in 1996), but Bush won it by 15 points.  It seemed silly to me at the time to be calling it a bellweather state.  They change from election to election.

This year, I'd say the top bellweathers are:
- Wisconsin
- Iowa
- Missouri
- New Mexico
Logged

Political Compass --
Economic Left/Right: -2.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.95

It's easy to stand up for free speech when you agree with the speaker. - less so when you don't.
The Vorlon
Vorlon
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4567


Political Matrix
E: 8.00, S: -4.21

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2004, 01:50:17 pm »
Ignore

I'll go out on limb and claim that the winner of WI will be the winner of the election.  

I'd say more an "acid test" for Kerry.

Ik Kerry loses WI's 10 EVs its a long hard climb to 270, it can be done, but the chances of losing WI and winning something else back from Bush like OH or FL is pretty thin IMHO.
Logged

No man's liberty is safe while Congress is in session...Thomas Jefferson
J-Mann
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2689
United States


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2004, 01:54:57 pm »
Ignore

I'll go out on limb and claim that the winner of WI will be the winner of the election.  

I'd say more an "acid test" for Kerry.

Ik Kerry loses WI's 10 EVs its a long hard climb to 270, it can be done, but the chances of losing WI and winning something else back from Bush like OH or FL is pretty thin IMHO.

Yep, my thoughts exactly.
Logged

Political Compass --
Economic Left/Right: -2.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.95

It's easy to stand up for free speech when you agree with the speaker. - less so when you don't.
Gustaf
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 26859


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

View Profile
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2004, 03:25:19 pm »
Ignore

I'm inclined to agree, I've had that feeling for a long time actually. Wisconsin and New Mexico have been the 2 states I've felt were the toughest to pin-point if the race was tied. But Kerry should be favoured, ever so slightly, in WI and probably needs it to win the election.
Logged

This place really has become a cesspool of degenerate whores...

Economic score: +0.9
Social score: -2.61

In MN for fantasy stuff, member of the most recently dissolved centrist party.
Mort from NewYawk
MortfromNewYawk
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 399


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2004, 03:36:24 pm »
Ignore

I donít think we have a bellweather yet, in the sense that there is no state that is critical for both candidates.

I think at this point, FL and PA are the deciding states. Of the remaining swing states, they are the ones with the electoral weight to carry the election (I consider OH and MO off the table for Kerry now.)

If Kerry loses FL and PA, itís over. If he actually squeaked by in both, Bush would have to put together a combination of other swing states, probably including 2 of 3 of the upper Midwest states (IA, MN, and WS).

Barring a disaster in Iraq or a clear victory for Kerry in the debates (neither of which are likely), Kerry will probably lose all of the above-mentioned states, IMHO.
Logged

Social progressive, foreign policy hawk. 2004:Democrat for Lieberman, voted Bush. 2008:McCain
J-Mann
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2689
United States


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2004, 03:53:51 pm »
Ignore

Maybe a definition of bellweather would help.  I'm not the one to give it, as I see two conflicting ideas of what one may or may not be.

1) A state that if, on election day, votes for a certain candidate, indicates victory for said candidate whether it is critical for the Electoral Vote count or not.

2) A state critical to a candidate's Electoral strategy; a necessary piece of the puzzle.

I'm much more inclined to think that a bellweather fits definition #1, but I've heard differently.  I think #2 better describes a battleground rather than a bellweather, though.

Could it be that it means different things to different campaigns?  What may be a "just a bellweather" for Bush could be a key part of Kerry's map strategy.
Logged

Political Compass --
Economic Left/Right: -2.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.95

It's easy to stand up for free speech when you agree with the speaker. - less so when you don't.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18305
United States


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2004, 04:08:50 pm »
Ignore

Maybe a definition of bellweather would help.  I'm not the one to give it, as I see two conflicting ideas of what one may or may not be.

My definition for bellweather is having the sum of the enviroment of the election boiled into one state, so that the direction of that one state is the tipping point for both sides.

Basically, I beieve if Kerry wins WI, he will also win PA, IA, and flip NH.  That brings Bush's EV total down to 274, and if Kerry wins WI, chances are he will also flips one of the following: NV, AR, or CO.

But, if Bush flips WI, then he probably maintains everything from 2000 except NH and can offord a surprse loss of either NV, AR, or CO...thus I don't see how Kerry wins the election if he loses WI.

I think WI is a must win for both Bush and Kerry.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2004, 08:32:00 pm by jmfcst »Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
M
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2496


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2004, 04:57:37 pm »
Ignore

I believe the election will not be particularly close. But if it is, Bush does not NEED Wisconsin, Kerry does and if ain't got it, he ain't got Florida either.

The best bellweather here is Ohio; currently it's decent Bush lean is nationally indicative.
Logged

Recently moved to Jackson, Mississippi.
bushforever
bushwillwin
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 381


View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2004, 10:11:04 pm »
Ignore

It's all up to OH, FL, and PA.  You gotta win two of those states to win the presidency.  Or miraculously pull off a bunch of unlikely smaller states.
Logged

"I can hear you, the rest of the world can hear you, and the people who knocked down these buildings will hear from all of us soon!!"
-George W. Bush

Economic Left/Right: 3.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 6.10

"But honestly...what's the point?  You're stupid"
-danwxman
A18
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 23836
Political Matrix
E: 9.23, S: -6.35

View Profile
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2004, 10:14:19 pm »
Ignore

I think Bush could pull it off



Bush 272



Bush 270



Bush 270
« Last Edit: September 24, 2004, 10:20:44 pm by Philip »Logged
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18305
United States


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2004, 11:28:08 pm »
Ignore

I think Bush could pull it off

I don't think any of those scenarios are likely.
Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
A18
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 23836
Political Matrix
E: 9.23, S: -6.35

View Profile
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2004, 11:28:57 pm »
Ignore

I do.
Logged
J-Mann
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2689
United States


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2004, 11:33:58 pm »
Ignore

I do.

No, seriously...they're not.  Sure, it's possible, but those three scenarios are really stretching the bounds of reality.
Logged

Political Compass --
Economic Left/Right: -2.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.95

It's easy to stand up for free speech when you agree with the speaker. - less so when you don't.
A18
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 23836
Political Matrix
E: 9.23, S: -6.35

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2004, 11:36:58 pm »
Ignore

Uh...



He's up in the polls in Wisconsin, Maine CD 2, and Iowa. Consider the bounds stretched.
Logged
J-Mann
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2689
United States


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2004, 11:49:28 pm »
Ignore

Uh...

He's up in the polls in Wisconsin, Maine CD 2, and Iowa. Consider the bounds stretched.

Easy, spaz, I'm not saying it can't happen.  It's just more likely that if Bush carries Wisconsin and Iowa, he's going to get Florida AND Ohio as well...as your personal prediction points out.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2004, 11:50:11 pm by J-Mann »Logged

Political Compass --
Economic Left/Right: -2.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.95

It's easy to stand up for free speech when you agree with the speaker. - less so when you don't.
Gustaf
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 26859


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

View Profile
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2004, 09:04:07 am »
Ignore

Philip, what's your point? Bush is ahead, so naturally he's up everywhere where he's competitive. Bush almost certainly won't carry Minnesota while losing Florida and Ohio, or Pennsylvania for that matter.
Logged

This place really has become a cesspool of degenerate whores...

Economic score: +0.9
Social score: -2.61

In MN for fantasy stuff, member of the most recently dissolved centrist party.
Democratic Hawk
LucysBeau
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 14669
United Kingdom


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2004, 09:04:24 am »
Ignore

I'll go out on limb and claim that the winner of WI will be the winner of the election.  

I'll go out on limb and claim that the winner of WI will be the winner of the election.  

Of all the states won by Gore, Wisconsin is certainly looking the most vulnerable to Bush. I'm not certain it will be the election decider though.

Dave
Logged

Moderate Liberal Populist Smiley [Personal 45%/Economic 42%] / Defense 'Hawk'

Registered in Georgia for Fantasy Politics
muon2
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8654


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2004, 09:43:34 am »
Ignore

Uh...



He's up in the polls in Wisconsin, Maine CD 2, and Iowa. Consider the bounds stretched.

I'm backing Philip on this one. This map is very plausible. Let's start with the current Atlas state poll aggregate. Phiip's maphere hasn't flipped any state that is colored for one candidate or the other.

Now consider a slight return to Kerry in the last month of the campaign. Of the toss-up states on the Atlas survey the following go to Kerry:

Kerry: NJ, OR, MN, ME-CD1(with ME statewide) - hard to see any problem here. This is consistent with many polls seen on the site.

Bush: NM, WV, ME-CD2 - I don't see anything wrong with these states going this way based on recent polling.

Kerry: NH, PA - With a slight swing in October this is not at all unreasonable since Northeastern states could see more of the swing than other parts of the country. Kerry's message is most in line with that part of the country.

Kerry: FL - This is the tough one to call. One factor that will make this exceedingly difficult is the hurricane effect. The level of disruption in that state is going to wreck havoc with voter turnout models. Getting voters to the polls can be difficult in good times. When there are more pressing things in life, voting becomes optional for many citizens.

Why is this so hard to imagine?
Logged


Lunar Eclipse of April 15, 2014 with the star Spica.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18305
United States


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2004, 09:48:39 am »
Ignore

I'm backing Philip on this one. This map is very plausible.

Although Bush is polling stronger in OH than FL, OH will swing back to Kerry much faster than FL - Bush has a much stronger base of support in FL than in OH.

Kerry will win OH before he wins FL.

Florida is Bush Country in 2004.
Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
muon2
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8654


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2004, 10:24:19 am »
Ignore

I'm backing Philip on this one. This map is very plausible.

Although Bush is polling stronger in OH than FL, OH will swing back to Kerry much faster than FL - Bush has a much stronger base of support in FL than in OH.

Kerry will win OH before he wins FL.

Florida is Bush Country in 2004.
In any ordinary year I would agree with you, and my personal prediction is still FL for Bush. However, I don't think it's implausible that FL flip to Kerry before OH.

Let me say more about the hurricane factor. FL has been hit by three hurricanes with a fourth on the way. Needless to say this is unprecedented and there is no past example to say how or if this will still impact voting in Nov. If the election were today, I'd bet that turnout in areas impacted by the hurricane are noticably lower.

Now consider where the hurricanes have struck, and where they haven't. Frances and Charley criss-crossed the center of the state. Bonnie, then Ivan struck the western panhandle. Jeanne is also headed for central FL. What's missing - Miami Dade.

If I had to guess, I'd think that south FL would vote in a normal pattern while central and western FL have a lower than normal turnout. Politically this would mean the Democratic stronghold of Miami votes about as expected, but strong Republican areas don't turn out. It wouldn't be for lack of support if Bush loses FL, just lack of votes cast.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2004, 10:27:36 am by muon2 »Logged


Lunar Eclipse of April 15, 2014 with the star Spica.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18305
United States


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2004, 12:09:11 pm »
Ignore

Uh...



He's up in the polls in Wisconsin, Maine CD 2, and Iowa. Consider the bounds stretched.

Isn't this still a victory for Bush?
Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18305
United States


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2004, 12:13:44 pm »
Ignore

I may be confused over what exactly Philip is arguing....My argument is that WI is a must win for both sides and is therefore the bellweather.
Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
muon2
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8654


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2004, 12:16:53 pm »
Ignore

Uh...



He's up in the polls in Wisconsin, Maine CD 2, and Iowa. Consider the bounds stretched.

Isn't this still a victory for Bush?


Yes, I believe that Philip was creating possible scenarios for a Bush with while losing two OH, FL, PA. The map quote here is the one of those three that seems most consistent with the current electorate. An interesting complication to this scenario would be if it happens as on the map, and CO votes in favor of its proportional representation referendum. That would give kerry a win, and then we surely would see a repeat of the 2000 legal wrangling.
Logged


Lunar Eclipse of April 15, 2014 with the star Spica.
Pages: [1] 2 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines