Hide Behind the Poll 3 - Bigotry

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

"This mysterious Jew-land" is basically ancient Israel, the original state. The problem is that most modern-day Jews probably don't have much of a link ancestry-wise to that state. The Palestineans almost certainly do more ironically.

[Person Man]

"This mysterious Jew-land" is basically ancient Israel, the original state. The problem is that most modern-day Jews probably don't have much of a link ancestry-wise to that state. The Palestineans almost certainly do more ironically.

Yeah. The average ancient Jew probably looked like a modern-day Palestinian...but the diaspora has caused them to be longer ethnically distinguishable sans the communities that were able to practice the sufficient degrees of endogamy to remain distinct over the last 1900 years.

[fezzyfestoon]

i though jews were a race and a religion.

Judaism is a religion.  My ancestors were Jewish, but I'm not.  That's it.  I'm not part Jewish because my ancestors were.

You're not part Jewish, but you're part Jew.

No, I'm not.  The only way to be any bit Jewish is to believe in Judaism.  There is no nation of Jew, there is no ethnic group of Jew, just a religion.  My Jewish ancestors were from Germany and Russia, not this mysterious Jew-land where people's religions become an ethnicity.

Also my mom said if your mom is jewish then you are jewish. Seems right to me.

Well riddle me this: If my great grandmother actually was Jewish and her daughter is no longer Jewish is my mother?  And am I?  And is my great grandmother then 100% Jewish despite her ancestors being Native American, Russian, Welsh and Polish?

[fezzyfestoon]

"This mysterious Jew-land" is basically ancient Israel, the original state. The problem is that most modern-day Jews probably don't have much of a link ancestry-wise to that state. The Palestineans almost certainly do more ironically.

And that would be Israeli ancestry or general Middle-Eastern ancestry, something I do not have.  And nor do many Jews, as you noted.  Jewish is not an ethnicity or nationality, it's just a religion.

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

i though jews were a race and a religion.

Judaism is a religion.  My ancestors were Jewish, but I'm not.  That's it.  I'm not part Jewish because my ancestors were.

You're not part Jewish, but you're part Jew.

No, I'm not.  The only way to be any bit Jewish is to believe in Judaism.  There is no nation of Jew, there is no ethnic group of Jew, just a religion.  My Jewish ancestors were from Germany and Russia, not this mysterious Jew-land where people's religions become an ethnicity.

Also my mom said if your mom is jewish then you are jewish. Seems right to me.

Well riddle me this: If my great grandmother actually was Jewish and her daughter is no longer Jewish is my mother?  And am I?  And is my great grandmother then 100% Jewish despite her ancestors being Native American, Russian, Welsh and Polish?

you can't not become un-jewish.

[fezzyfestoon]

You didn't answer my questions.  How do you explain the situation and how does the Judaism factor into my ancestry if it is in fact a nationality and ethnicity?  Or does Judaism just wipe everything else clear if you believe in the religion?

[Sensei]

i though jews were a race and a religion.

Judaism is a religion.  My ancestors were Jewish, but I'm not.  That's it.  I'm not part Jewish because my ancestors were.

You're not part Jewish, but you're part Jew.

No, I'm not.  The only way to be any bit Jewish is to believe in Judaism.  There is no nation of Jew, there is no ethnic group of Jew, just a religion.  My Jewish ancestors were from Germany and Russia, not this mysterious Jew-land where people's religions become an ethnicity.

Also my mom said if your mom is jewish then you are jewish. Seems right to me.

Well riddle me this: If my great grandmother actually was Jewish and her daughter is no longer Jewish is my mother?  And am I?  And is my great grandmother then 100% Jewish despite her ancestors being Native American, Russian, Welsh and Polish?

you can't not become un-jewish.

Triple negative? Really?

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

You didn't answer my questions.  How do you explain the situation and how does the Judaism factor into my ancestry if it is in fact a nationality and ethnicity?  Or does Judaism just wipe everything else clear if you believe in the religion?

I am sorry.
I was in the mind set that since your grandmother was than you would be. Did you see the fiddler on the roof? The jews and kasaks(the dancer in the bar) literally look different. I think it became a race since that was who they mated with. Other jews. Hence how you can tell if a person is Jewish.

[Alexander Hamilton]

"This mysterious Jew-land" is basically ancient Israel, the original state. The problem is that most modern-day Jews probably don't have much of a link ancestry-wise to that state. The Palestineans almost certainly do more ironically.

And that would be Israeli ancestry or general Middle-Eastern ancestry, something I do not have.  And nor do many Jews, as you noted.  Jewish is not an ethnicity or nationality, it's just a religion.

You happen to be one of the most reasonable people around here. I think I can just quote your posts and never say anything hahah.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

I views Judaism as a religion mostly, but also as a culture, to a lesser degree.

[Хahar 🤔]

i though jews were a race and a religion.

Judaism is a religion.  My ancestors were Jewish, but I'm not.  That's it.  I'm not part Jewish because my ancestors were.

You're not part Jewish, but you're part Jew.

No, I'm not.  The only way to be any bit Jewish is to believe in Judaism.  There is no nation of Jew, there is no ethnic group of Jew, just a religion.  My Jewish ancestors were from Germany and Russia, not this mysterious Jew-land where people's religions become an ethnicity.

There's no ethnic group of Jew?

Since I disagree with that, there's no way either of us can convince each other.

[fezzyfestoon]

There's no ethnic group of Jew?

Since I disagree with that, there's no way either of us can convince each other.

There is no proving it.  The ethnicity of "Jew" has been constructed out of stereotypes and bigotry.  Not necessarily direct bigotry, just something that grew out of large scale distancing from Jews throughout history.  At many times ethnic prejudices were the preferred vehicle for that and the ethnic Jew was created as an entity to blame and hate.

[Хahar 🤔]

There's no ethnic group of Jew?

Since I disagree with that, there's no way either of us can convince each other.

There is no proving it.  The ethnicity of "Jew" has been constructed out of stereotypes and bigotry.  Not necessarily direct bigotry, just something that grew out of large scale distancing from Jews throughout history.  At many times ethnic prejudices were the preferred vehicle for that and the ethnic Jew was created as an entity to blame and hate.

Ethnicity and ancestry are different. Even if the Jewish ethnic group has no real ancestral basis, it exists because it was created and embraced by its members.

[fezzyfestoon]

Then what about every other religion?  Is there a Christian ethnicity, a Muslim ethnicity, Hindi, Taoist?

[Хahar 🤔]

Then what about every other religion?  Is there a Christian ethnicity, a Muslim ethnicity, Hindi, Taoist?

No, because people identify solely religiously with said groups, and not ethnically.

[Verily]

Fezzy, this is ridiculous. There are clear genetic indications of shared, unique ancestry among the vast majority of Jews. That's all it takes to make an ethnic group. Jews are not radically different ethnically from many other ethnic groups of the ancient eastern Mediterranean (Greeks, Copts, "Arabs", etc.), but they're at least as distinct as, say, French are from Germans.

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

Fezzy, this is ridiculous. There are clear genetic indications of shared, unique ancestry among the vast majority of Jews. That's all it takes to make an ethnic group. Jews are not radically different ethnically from many other ethnic groups of the eastern Mediterranean (Greeks, Copts, Arabs, etc.), but they're at least as distinct as, say, French are from Germans.

hence why Jews have more genetic disease that can occur, right?

[Verily]

Fezzy, this is ridiculous. There are clear genetic indications of shared, unique ancestry among the vast majority of Jews. That's all it takes to make an ethnic group. Jews are not radically different ethnically from many other ethnic groups of the eastern Mediterranean (Greeks, Copts, Arabs, etc.), but they're at least as distinct as, say, French are from Germans.

hence why Jews have more genetic disease that can occur, right?

Well, not more, but there are concentrations of a few genetic disorders in some Jewish communities. Those came later, though. Ashkenazic Jews have a strong Tay-Sachs Disease presence (so do the Irish and Russians, IIRC) because being a carrier grants some resistance to lung diseases, but Sephardic Jews do not have an unusually high incidence of the disease because their shared ancestry comes before the Ashkenazic Jews moved to where lung diseases were a serious concern.

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

Fezzy, this is ridiculous. There are clear genetic indications of shared, unique ancestry among the vast majority of Jews. That's all it takes to make an ethnic group. Jews are not radically different ethnically from many other ethnic groups of the eastern Mediterranean (Greeks, Copts, Arabs, etc.), but they're at least as distinct as, say, French are from Germans.

hence why Jews have more genetic disease that can occur, right?

Well, not more, but there are concentrations of a few genetic disorders in some Jewish communities. Those came later, though. Ashkenazic Jews have a strong Tay-Sachs Disease presence (so do the Irish and Russians, IIRC) because being a carrier grants some resistance to lung diseases, but Sephardic Jews do not have an unusually high incidence of the disease because their shared ancestry comes before the Ashkenazic Jews moved to where lung diseases were a serious concern.

oh ok. Thanx!! that was cool.

[fezzyfestoon]

Fezzy, this is ridiculous. There are clear genetic indications of shared, unique ancestry among the vast majority of Jews. That's all it takes to make an ethnic group. Jews are not radically different ethnically from many other ethnic groups of the ancient eastern Mediterranean (Greeks, Copts, "Arabs", etc.), but they're at least as distinct as, say, French are from Germans.

Fine, that much I can concede, but the fact remains that the ancestry of people and genetics are independent of religion.  That's the point.  One's religious beliefs are not genetic.  That's why I protest the usage of "Jewish" to describe a nationality (that doesn't exist), ethnicity, and religion.  The entire point is only that religion and ancestry are independent.

[Хahar 🤔]

The entire point is only that religion and ancestry are independent.

Nobody suggested otherwise.

But ancestry and ethnicity are also independent.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

"This mysterious Jew-land" is basically ancient Israel, the original state. The problem is that most modern-day Jews probably don't have much of a link ancestry-wise to that state. The Palestineans almost certainly do more ironically.

Unless you buy into the Khazar myth, you're greatly underestimating quite how sealed off from Christian Europeans the Ashkenazim were until well into the 19th century. I presume that you know the origin of the word "ghetto".

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Fine, that much I can concede, but the fact remains that the ancestry of people and genetics are independent of religion.  That's the point.

 

That's usually the case (in theory anyway) but Jews are exceptional in this regard (as in so many others). Centuries of discrimination and isolation, along with the oddities of Jewish religious law, mean that the boundaries have been blurred and broken.

[dead0man]

Well, I am more of a clasist than a racist. For example middle class blacks and jews tend to be ok but we could do without ghetto blacks and wealthy jews. there are low class whites and elitist whites as well but they are not quite as bad. I would never hate someone purely because of their race.

Found one of those, too.

How is hating a black low class person more than a white one not hating them purely because of their race?

PS - Jews are white.  Eek!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaphet_Kotto

Mr. Big was a Jew? Interesting.

Not only that, but he is a Republican to boot.  (according to the end of his wiki.....at least in 2000 he was...a lot of people have stopped being Republican in the mean time)  That is a crazy combination of things.  A black, Jewish, artist....conservative.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

And he was in a Larry the Cable Guy movie, so I'm not surprised he's a Republican. He's a fucking piece of human trash for starring in such a thing.