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| | |-+  Which would you perfer?
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Poll
Question: Which would you perfer...
Between 1973 and 2009, there were 47000000 legal abortions in the United States   -19 (90.5%)
Between 1973 and 2009 there were 70000000 illegal abortion in the United States   -2 (9.5%)
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Total Voters: 21

Author Topic: Which would you perfer?  (Read 2217 times)
MooMooMoo, Amith!
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« on: February 16, 2009, 02:35:09 pm »
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Just answer the fuggin question. Tongue
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the result is a sense that we were told to attend a lavish dinner party that was going to be wonderful and by the time we got there, all the lobster and steak had been eaten, a fight had broken out, the police had been called and all that was left was warm beer and chips.
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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2009, 02:48:13 pm »
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Option 1, in theory.

But it's certainly unproven that full legalization reduces the number by that amount.
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RIP Robert H Bork
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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2009, 02:54:39 pm »
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You are suggesting that reducing abortions and outlawing them are mutually exclusive, a false dichotomy, so I will not vote.
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Clearly the solution is to privatize presidential elections.

So, in less than four years, get excited for the 2016 MetLife Financial U Pick The Prez Extravaganza. If you tweet a picture of your completed ballot with the hashtag #ivoted, you could win a trip for two to the inauguration or an iTunes gift card.
MooMooMoo, Amith!
Angry_Weasel
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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2009, 05:24:19 pm »
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You are suggesting that reducing abortions and outlawing them are mutually exclusive, a false dichotomy, so I will not vote.

Well, how come the abortion rate in Europe is 2.7% of all women each year and in Africa its 2.8%?
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the result is a sense that we were told to attend a lavish dinner party that was going to be wonderful and by the time we got there, all the lobster and steak had been eaten, a fight had broken out, the police had been called and all that was left was warm beer and chips.
Wall St. Wiz
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« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2009, 08:48:49 pm »
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What is it with you Democrats?  Why do you love the death of babies?  Yet when we try to punish and kill the real enemy, radical Islamic extremists, you oppose your country every step of the way.
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For the sake of the country, I hope that President Obama fails.
DanielX
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« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2009, 10:09:52 pm »
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You are suggesting that reducing abortions and outlawing them are mutually exclusive, a false dichotomy, so I will not vote.

Well, how come the abortion rate in Europe is 2.7% of all women each year and in Africa its 2.8%?

Apples and oranges.

- People in Europe have, on average, a much greater access to contraceptives.
- I bet a much smaller percentage of Europeans are pregnant in any given year than Africans, due to the much lower pregnancy and birthrates. Ergo, its probable that a much larger percentage of European pregnancies end in abortion, even if a smaller percentage of women abort every year.
- In terms of what people use as justifications for abortion, poverty is a very common reason (and, if there is no hope for any other means to take care of the child, such as adoption, then abortion is much easier to justify). Compare the poverty rates of Africa and Europe, and further compare how many "poor" Europeans are capable of providing at least minimal care for an additional child compared to "poor" Africans. QED.
- do we know these numbers are accurate? Africa, especially, may not have the most reliable statistics. I could see the actual abortion rates being considerably lower or higher, for a variety of reasons.

I also refuse to vote in this poll - a false dichotomy if I have ever seen one.

Also, WSW, do shut up, even if I agree that abortion is, in most cases, blatantly unethical.  Bringing in "Islamic Extremists" does nothing for a general abortion argument, and I've learned over the years that naked demagoguery rarely convinces people of arguments (thus you're probably either rather young - in which case you need to get real-world experience, heck I was a bit like that when I was 12 - or a troll - in which case, you are free to go to gehenna and never return).
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Yankee Capitalist Scum!
Sensei
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« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2009, 12:22:59 am »
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You are suggesting that reducing abortions and outlawing them are mutually exclusive, a false dichotomy, so I will not vote.

Well, how come the abortion rate in Europe is 2.7% of all women each year and in Africa its 2.8%?

Apples and oranges.

- People in Europe have, on average, a much greater access to contraceptives.
- I bet a much smaller percentage of Europeans are pregnant in any given year than Africans, due to the much lower pregnancy and birthrates. Ergo, its probable that a much larger percentage of European pregnancies end in abortion, even if a smaller percentage of women abort every year.
- In terms of what people use as justifications for abortion, poverty is a very common reason (and, if there is no hope for any other means to take care of the child, such as adoption, then abortion is much easier to justify). Compare the poverty rates of Africa and Europe, and further compare how many "poor" Europeans are capable of providing at least minimal care for an additional child compared to "poor" Africans. QED.
- do we know these numbers are accurate? Africa, especially, may not have the most reliable statistics. I could see the actual abortion rates being considerably lower or higher, for a variety of reasons.

I also refuse to vote in this poll - a false dichotomy if I have ever seen one.

Also, WSW, do shut up, even if I agree that abortion is, in most cases, blatantly unethical.  Bringing in "Islamic Extremists" does nothing for a general abortion argument, and I've learned over the years that naked demagoguery rarely convinces people of arguments (thus you're probably either rather young - in which case you need to get real-world experience, heck I was a bit like that when I was 12 - or a troll - in which case, you are free to go to gehenna and never return).
damn. Way to come out of the woodwork.
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MooMooMoo, Amith!
Angry_Weasel
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« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2009, 12:44:26 am »
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Still though, don't try to think of it as a false dichotomy. That's a non-sequitor. Just answer the question. Tongue
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the result is a sense that we were told to attend a lavish dinner party that was going to be wonderful and by the time we got there, all the lobster and steak had been eaten, a fight had broken out, the police had been called and all that was left was warm beer and chips.
Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2009, 02:52:01 am »
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Option 1
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DanielX
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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2009, 10:03:48 am »
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damn. Way to come out of the woodwork.

I'm not completely out of here - I usually come and make a few posts a week now, and lurk quite a bit as well. Other hobbies/boards, RL issues, and the sheer fact that too much politics is bad for my blood pressure keep me from being quite as active as in the past.

As for the whole "vote in the stupid poll" bit, of course I would prefer as few abortions as possible. But, I don't think you'll have more abortions if you restrict it for medical reasons, probably less. 
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Yankee Capitalist Scum!
Smid
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2009, 10:14:32 am »
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I think option 1 was the least number, so I voted for it.
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dead0man
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« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2009, 10:22:22 am »
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Still though, don't try to think of it as a false dichotomy. That's a non-sequitor. Just answer the question. Tongue
Can you just fast forward to the part where you explain the point of the loaded question instead?
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realisticidealist
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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2009, 11:40:13 pm »
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Still though, don't try to think of it as a false dichotomy. That's a non-sequitor. Just answer the question. Tongue

Except for the fact that it is undeniably a false dichotomy. There are only two options presented, one of which we have no way of knowing if it is accurate or not. You make the assumption that if abortion was criminalized, that abortions would necessarily go up.

Whether or not abortion would go up if you criminalized it (which I reject), the fact that you make that the only other option makes it a false dilemma. If you presented a host of options, you could remedy this fallacy, but alas partisan rhetoric is preferred in this case.
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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return."
MooMooMoo, Amith!
Angry_Weasel
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« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2009, 12:59:22 am »
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Still...the question is whether it is better to have a few legal abortions or a lot of ones that you could prosecute somehow. Don't try to think of it beyond that. It is intrsincally a question where you have to chose between one or the other, regardless of what may actually happen.
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the result is a sense that we were told to attend a lavish dinner party that was going to be wonderful and by the time we got there, all the lobster and steak had been eaten, a fight had broken out, the police had been called and all that was left was warm beer and chips.
dead0man
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« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2009, 02:03:47 am »
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Would you rather have 1,000,000 people die due to lack of medical care because they can't afford it or 2,000,000 people die due to lack of medical care because they had to wait in line to receive "free" medical care?

Would you rather win a war with W.Bush or lose a war with Obama?

My point?  Of course everyone is going to pick the one with fewer abortions.


Now, can we please get to where the point of the loaded question is explained?
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MK13
Mike Keller
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« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2009, 02:04:41 am »
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Still though, don't try to think of it as a false dichotomy. That's a non-sequitor. Just answer the question. Tongue

Except for the fact that it is undeniably a false dichotomy. There are only two options presented, one of which we have no way of knowing if it is accurate or not. You make the assumption that if abortion was criminalized, that abortions would necessarily go up.

Whether or not abortion would go up if you criminalized it (which I reject), the fact that you make that the only other option makes it a false dilemma. If you presented a host of options, you could remedy this fallacy, but alas partisan rhetoric is preferred in this case.

100% in agreement

If outlawed/ criminalized abortions would  not necessarily rise.  It would become harder for a woman to make that decision with the weight of the law not on her side anymore.  
You might see a decrease

Not that I'm prolife.
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MooMooMoo, Amith!
Angry_Weasel
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« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2009, 01:36:11 pm »
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Yeah...in theory, if someone had to deal with the cops to get an abortion, people would probably be deterred. Then again, people might become resentful to the police and have abortions for simply the sake of rebeling. Another issue could be the loss of the need to prevent abortion when you can simply brush the problem under the rug. There could be a creeping stigma coming back upon single motherhood and thus increase the sociological need for abortions. I think that the legalization of abortion could have reduced some of the need to have an abortion in the first place by forcing people who don't want women to have to have abortions to de-stigmatize unwed motherhood. Just look at the Bristol Palin story. That would have never happened if abortion was still counted as a form of child abuse or illicit adultery (it was never part of the law against violent crimes in any state in the United States...(though it was a form of low-grade manslaughter in the Late British Empire ). 
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the result is a sense that we were told to attend a lavish dinner party that was going to be wonderful and by the time we got there, all the lobster and steak had been eaten, a fight had broken out, the police had been called and all that was left was warm beer and chips.
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