Opinion of Robert E. Lee

[Free Palestine]

One man's traitor is another's patriot.  It is nationalistic and ignorant to call Lee a traitor.  States have (or rather, had) the right to secede, and he was defending the right of his state, as well as others, to do so.

States never had the right to secede.

The federal government was meant to be a compact between the various states, a voluntary Union.  If a state decides that they wish to leave, with the consent of the governed, they have every right to leave.  Of course the federal government isn't going to be very happy though, and secession is not always the best thing for everyone.  But to resist and override the will of the people is nothing short of tyranny.

[useful idiot]

It doesn't matter what he was thinking, the point is that he fought for the side that supported slavery of other human beings, and that makes him an awful person.

Right, and the Union states of West Virginia, Missouri, Kentucky, Delaware, and Maryland so totally didn't allow slavery at all!
I don't have a fond memory of the Confederation or what it stood for, but to act like only they were guilty of supporting slavery is being ignorant of history.

Ok, so the Northern victory over the backwards South totally didn't bring an end to slavery, got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

You can't have it both ways, which is what you're trying to do. The South was "backwards" yet Kentucky, Maryland, West Virginia, Delaware, and Missouri weren't? You say he fought for the "side that supported slavery of other human beings", well states in the North supported the slavery of other human beings too. Those who supported slavery in the Union states weren't fighting to end slavery, they were fighting to bring the South under Northern domination.

If you're only going to support elements in the North whose goal in the war was to abolish slavery, then you're going to end up supporting a limited number of people, and in which case what they "were thinking" means everything. It's either black and white, or it isn't. I think the historical record shows that nothing about either side was simple.

I tend to support the Thaddeus Stevens position on the war; the South had the right to secede, but it was the North's right to go to war to end slavery. I'm not going to blast guys who decided to fight for their country, which was the CSA, and was no longer the United States. If you're going to attack the political establishment in the South, have at it, they bear most of the responsibility for the war itself. Don't pretend for a second though, that choosing not to fight against your own people and state is the absolute morally wrong position to take because your country had atrocious policies.

[useful idiot]

Not an FF, but a man I admire greatly and who yes, made the right decision. The Civil War was going to take place whether he liked it or not, to fight against the citizens of his home state would have been monstrous.

Slavery was a moral crime, but don't for a minute act like it played into the mind of Lee

On the contrary, it clearly did play into the mind of Lee.

Ok, provide me with some sort of evidence that Lee chose to fight for Virginia to preserve slavery. I'd love to see it, and I'm sure most historians and the history department at my school would too.

[Lief 🗽]

Should have been executed for treason like the rest of the Confederate leadership.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

One man's traitor is another's patriot.  It is nationalistic and ignorant to call Lee a traitor.  States have (or rather, had) the right to secede, and he was defending the right of his state, as well as others, to do so.

No, the States do not have the right to secede.

[Sewer]

CSA VP Alexander Stephens declared that the cornerstone of the CSA government "rested upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth".

And president Davis? He was mad at the Republican Party's failure "to recognize our domestic institutions which pre-existed the formation of the Union — our property which was guarded by the Constitution."

[RosettaStoned]

FF.

[Vepres]

Not a FF, but wasn't a bad guy.

[Frodo]

Where is StatesRights?  This thread ought to have brought him out. 

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Where is StatesRights?  This thread ought to have brought him out. 

I think he really has left; he hasn't been on since, like, August.

[tmthforu94]

Massive Freedom Fighter

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Don't pretend for a second though, that choosing not to fight against your own people and state is the absolute morally wrong position to take because your country had atrocious policies.

Sure it is. If some teabaggers took power in Minnesota and tried to seceed, I sure as hell wouldn't fight for my state. Hell I'd enjoy being treasonous and blowing up and putting bullets into teabagging filth, just like slaveowners.

Alfred Jodl pretty much chose just to stand by his country and its atrocious policies and never joined the Nazi Party. And he was executed for it regardless.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I frown upon him for fighting for either side in that horrible war, though he stands out as an especially negative figure since he chose his side of allegiance because his home state happened to be on that side. I have no interest in allegiance to something that one is a part of by matters of pure happenstance.

[useful idiot]

Don't pretend for a second though, that choosing not to fight against your own people and state is the absolute morally wrong position to take because your country had atrocious policies.

Sure it is. If some teabaggers took power in Minnesota and tried to seceed, I sure as hell wouldn't fight for my state. Hell I'd enjoy being treasonous and blowing up and putting bullets into teabagging filth, just like slaveowners.

Alfred Jodl pretty much chose just to stand by his country and its atrocious policies and never joined the Nazi Party. And he was executed for it regardless.

Yeah, you'd enjoy putting bullets into Tea Partiers, not burning down your neighborhood and watching your soldiers lay waste to the place and people you love. This wasn't like a modern war where two groups of volunteer soldiers fight each other for political reasons. Two sets of politicians decided they couldn't work out a solution, and Southern politicians were stubborn and were willing to give up the lives of the non-slaveholding class so they could keep their "property", and the entire populace of the South became target practice for an invading army.

You say you'd like putting bullets into slave owners, well guess what? The VAST MAJORITY of guys fighting for the Confederacy were not slaveowners, and plenty of officers from the North owned slaves themselves.

This is the equivalent of you saying in 2003 that you wouldn't mind putting bullets into Iraqi goat famers and street vendors because their government was whacked. Did you except them to join up with the Americans to help bomb their cities, killing hundreds of thousands of their neighbours, friends, and countrymen?

Your distorted black and white thinking is more than slightly similar to that of Republicans...

[Derek]

He was a hero. We are a nation of states and the Civil War was ONLY about states having the right to secede when they are being threatened and bullied by the radical north who wanted to hurt farms at the expense of industry. The issue of slavery is nothing more than a political tool for historians today to point to and gain sympathy for the Lincoln lovers. Btw, if you know anything about Lincoln, you'll know he was very manipulative and mentally instable.

[Phony Moderate]

It could be argued that he was a FF, if he wasn't a HP.