Genesis 2... Problem for Literalists?
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  Genesis 2... Problem for Literalists?
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Author Topic: Genesis 2... Problem for Literalists?  (Read 3728 times)
12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« on: March 17, 2009, 09:42:55 PM »

Question:  does anyone else find this snippet of narrative highly problematic for those who accept the absolute literal Genesis story, but also profess that God is omnipotent?

1
    Thus the heavens and the earth and all their array were completed.
2
    Since on the seventh day God was finished with the work he had been doing, he rested on the seventh day from all the work he had undertaken.
3
    So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work he had done in creation.
4
    1 Such is the story of the heavens and the earth at their creation. At the time when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens--

Just tell me what jumps out at you when you have it.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2009, 09:50:38 PM »

14 views and still no takers?

It jumps out at me every single time I read it.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2009, 09:55:50 PM »

Question:  does anyone else find this snippet of narrative highly problematic for those who accept the absolute literal Genesis story, but also profess that God is omnipotent?

"for those who accept the absolute literal Genesis story"?  you mean like Jesus and the Apostles?

---

1
    Thus the heavens and the earth and all their array were completed.
2
    Since on the seventh day God was finished with the work he had been doing, he rested on the seventh day from all the work he had undertaken.
3
    So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work he had done in creation.
4
    1 Such is the story of the heavens and the earth at their creation. At the time when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens--

Just tell me what jumps out at you when you have it.

I see no problem with God's omnipotence here.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2009, 09:57:22 PM »

Question:  does anyone else find this snippet of narrative highly problematic for those who accept the absolute literal Genesis story, but also profess that God is omnipotent?

"for those who accept the absolute literal Genesis story"?  you mean like Jesus and the Apostles?

---

1
    Thus the heavens and the earth and all their array were completed.
2
    Since on the seventh day God was finished with the work he had been doing, he rested on the seventh day from all the work he had undertaken.
3
    So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work he had done in creation.
4
    1 Such is the story of the heavens and the earth at their creation. At the time when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens--

Just tell me what jumps out at you when you have it.

I see no problem with God's omnipotence here.

Why would an omnipotent God need to rest?  Either God's not omnipotent or, far more likely, the text is not literal.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2009, 09:58:38 PM »

In fact, the question is not why he needs to "rest" but why would he ever "rest".  If God is constantly "ising" then there is no "rest" for God.  Bottom line.
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Yamor
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2009, 10:00:18 PM »

Rest does not mean rest because He was tired. Rest means simply that He was finished and didn't create anything more.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2009, 10:01:07 PM »

BTW... keep working that tired "like Jesus and the Apostles" when I bring this up.  I have already offered superior counter points so many times that its now become trite.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2009, 10:04:17 PM »
« Edited: March 17, 2009, 10:06:13 PM by Supersoulty »

Rest does not mean rest because He was tired. Rest means simply that He was finished and didn't create anything more.

The text specifically states that he rested from all the work he had done.  And that's in any translation.  The obvious intent of the author was to get the point across that these were related ideas.

But even if it weren't as I said, if God always is, and is all power, then God does not "rest" at all.  God simply exists.  He doesn't take breaks.  Omnipotent, Omnipresent,not bound by our conceptions of time and space, omni-dimensional etc, etc.  To rest at all means that God falls out of those definitions.

The author is clearly trying to relate a point here, and he is doing hsi best, but its not that this is exactly what happened, as it happened.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2009, 10:06:09 PM »

Why would an omnipotent God need to rest?  Either God's not omnipotent or, far more likely, the text is not literal.

the scripture simply says that he rested, it does not say he "needed" to rest.

But, this passage is taken literally by the New Testament:

Heb 4:4 "And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: 'And on the seventh day God rested from all his work.'"

The 7th day had no evening, it was an eternal rest.  Those who have faith today will be able to enter God's eternal rest. (read Heb 3:7-4:11).

so, one thing that can be assumed is that God was setting aside an eternal rest, not for his need, but for our need.
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Yamor
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« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2009, 10:07:37 PM »

Again, rest does not mean the way you're understanding it to mean. Rest here just means that God finished the work of creation, therefore, by definition, He was resting from the work of creation. Not that He needed the rest, nor that He actually took a break to like go to sleep or something.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2009, 10:10:22 PM »

Why would an omnipotent God need to rest?  Either God's not omnipotent or, far more likely, the text is not literal.

the scripture simply says that he rested, it does not say he "needed" to rest.

But, this passage is taken literally by the New Testament:

Heb 4:4 "And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: 'And on the seventh day God rested from all his work.'"

The 7th day had no evening, it was an eternal rest.  Those who have faith today will be able to enter God's eternal rest. (read Heb 3:7-4:11).

so, one thing that can be assumed is that God was setting aside an eternal rest, not for his need, but for our need.

It's amazing how far you are willing to reach beyond the literal text when, and only when, it has some immediate benefit to your purposes.

I'm sure that that is exactly what is meant by the original author.  That when it says God rested, he was resting us.

And you attack me for my so-called "reaches".
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2009, 10:14:50 PM »

Again, rest does not mean the way you're understanding it to mean. Rest here just means that God finished the work of creation, therefore, by definition, He was resting from the work of creation. Not that He needed the rest, nor that He actually took a break to like go to sleep or something.

In all the time I have looked this over, you are the first two people I have ever come across who have presented that as a serious interpretation, and I have talked to and read some pretty bright people.

I would like to see a translation.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2009, 10:16:22 PM »

BTW... keep working that tired "like Jesus and the Apostles" when I bring this up.  I have already offered superior counter points so many times that its now become trite.

You showed that Jesus and the Apostles didn't take the Genesis account literally?!  Do you have a link?

That would be strange because not only did Jesus and Apostles (and, for that matter, the rest of the Old Testament) take the account literally, they placed the words of Genesis into the mouth of God:

Heb 4:4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: 'And on the seventh day God rested from all his work.'"
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2009, 10:16:47 PM »

It is not even footnote in the NAB which footnotes and annotates everything in any possible area where there might be confusion because of the translation.
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Yamor
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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2009, 10:16:52 PM »

What translation do you want? The Hebrew?
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2009, 10:18:47 PM »

What translation do you want? The Hebrew?

Direct from Hebrew, yes.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2009, 10:19:45 PM »

Why would an omnipotent God need to rest?  Either God's not omnipotent or, far more likely, the text is not literal.

the scripture simply says that he rested, it does not say he "needed" to rest.

But, this passage is taken literally by the New Testament:

Heb 4:4 "And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: 'And on the seventh day God rested from all his work.'"

The 7th day had no evening, it was an eternal rest.  Those who have faith today will be able to enter God's eternal rest. (read Heb 3:7-4:11).

so, one thing that can be assumed is that God was setting aside an eternal rest, not for his need, but for our need.

It's amazing how far you are willing to reach beyond the literal text when, and only when, it has some immediate benefit to your purposes.

I'm sure that that is exactly what is meant by the original author.  That when it says God rested, he was resting us.
And you attack me for my so-called "reaches".

WHAT?!

Obviously, I meant that God created an eternal rest (which God, himself, first took part in) for OUR BENEFIT.

If you read Heb 3:7-4:10, you'll see the very eternal rest God took on the 7th day is the EXACT SAME rest believers are promised in the afterlife.
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Yamor
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« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2009, 10:26:00 PM »

Ok. Here's how I translate it, word for word from the Hebrew without changing anything to fit better in English:
And the heaven and earth and all their hosts were finished. And God finished on the seventh day His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all his work which He had done. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which He had created, to do.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2009, 10:28:30 PM »

BTW... keep working that tired "like Jesus and the Apostles" when I bring this up.  I have already offered superior counter points so many times that its now become trite.

You showed that Jesus and the Apostles didn't take the Genesis account literally?!  Do you have a link?

That would be strange because not only did Jesus and Apostles (and, for that matter, the rest of the Old Testament) take the account literally, they placed the words of Genesis into the mouth of God:

Heb 4:4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: 'And on the seventh day God rested from all his work.'"

I utterly defeated your notion of the necessity of it.  You claim that Jesus and the Apostles make reference to the OT, ergo it must all be literally, 100%, completely true.  As I have said, Jesus would have spoken in the terms that the Israelites would have understood.  Simple as that.  Anytime the OT scripture is drawn upon it is to illustrate a point, or to make a cultural reference.  Therefore, it still does not necessitate that every word of OT scripture, or any of the scripture, must be literal fact for the truth of the message to hold.  I'm not saying that the Bible is blasted full of egregious errors, as you try to pretend I am saying, but I am saying, as I have said many times, that much of the Bible was written for the purpose of intent, message, not fact.  To illustrate points, not to serve as a textbook.

People like yo get so enamored with literal word, that you miss the point... but again, this holds so long as it suits you, because then you can dip into your bag of tricks and pull out a strained connection or two, when it suits you.

So, your "well, obviously the Apostles and Jesus... and so on" is simply insignificant to the argument, because it says nothing conclusive.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2009, 10:30:29 PM »

Why would an omnipotent God need to rest?  Either God's not omnipotent or, far more likely, the text is not literal.

the scripture simply says that he rested, it does not say he "needed" to rest.

But, this passage is taken literally by the New Testament:

Heb 4:4 "And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: 'And on the seventh day God rested from all his work.'"

The 7th day had no evening, it was an eternal rest.  Those who have faith today will be able to enter God's eternal rest. (read Heb 3:7-4:11).

so, one thing that can be assumed is that God was setting aside an eternal rest, not for his need, but for our need.

It's amazing how far you are willing to reach beyond the literal text when, and only when, it has some immediate benefit to your purposes.

I'm sure that that is exactly what is meant by the original author.  That when it says God rested, he was resting us.
And you attack me for my so-called "reaches".

WHAT?!

Obviously, I meant that God created an eternal rest (which God, himself, first took part in) for OUR BENEFIT.

If you read Heb 3:7-4:10, you'll see the very eternal rest God took on the 7th day is the EXACT SAME rest believers are promised in the afterlife.

Alright, honestly, I am willing to indulge you.  Please explain your point, and I will listen, because I don't really get what you are talking about, or how you forge this direct connection.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2009, 10:32:00 PM »

Ok. Here's how I translate it, word for word from the Hebrew without changing anything to fit better in English:
And the heaven and earth and all their hosts were finished. And God finished on the seventh day His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all his work which He had done. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which He had created, to do.

See, that still sounds to me like the rest is related to the work.  I have jmf throwing Paul at me over hear, which is the only reason I think I might be missing something here.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2009, 10:43:20 PM »

And isn't the entire premise for rest on the Sabbath based around the notion that the Sabbath is the day that God rested?
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2009, 10:51:50 PM »

Come on here, kids, make your case.  I can be convinced, if the case is convincing.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2009, 11:20:24 PM »
« Edited: March 17, 2009, 11:33:06 PM by jmfcst »

Obviously, I meant that God created an eternal rest (which God, himself, first took part in) for OUR BENEFIT.

If you read Heb 3:7-4:10, you'll see the very eternal rest God took on the 7th day is the EXACT SAME rest believers are promised in the afterlife.

Alright, honestly, I am willing to indulge you.  Please explain your point, and I will listen, because I don't really get what you are talking about, or how you forge this direct connection.

Ok, my first point is that Genesis does NOT say that God “needed” to rest, simply that he rested.  There are MANY actions God did, not for His need, but for our need.  

Example: God told Solomon to build a house for Him, yet God didn’t need the house for Himself, because Paul states in Acts17:24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.”

So, we can't assume that simply because God did something or instituted something that He must have needed it.  The purpose may serve OUR needs, not His.

The lack of rest is a picture of Hell: Revelation 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

And the presence of rest is a picture of Heaven: Revelation 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

Heb 3:7 through Heb 4:11 is all about equating the eternal rest of Heaven that awaits us with the rest God took on the 7th day of Creation.  The Sabbath is simply a prefiguration of Heaven, just as the Passover was a prefiguration of the death of Christ.

Col 2:16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were and are to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

So, since the scripture plainly states that the Sabbath symbolizes the eternal Heavenly rest that awaits those in Christ and since Genesis does NOT say that God “needed” to rest, my conclusion is that God took an eternal rest for our benefit – to establish an eternal rest for us, where we will be at peace for ever with God.

---

Lastly, since Heb 4:4 states: "And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: 'And on the seventh day God rested from all his work.'"...

...it shows that the writer of Hebrews took literally God's rest in Genesis.

Since the bible doesn't say that God needed to rest, there is no "Problem for Literalists".  On the other hand, if you want to say that God didn't rest, then you are the one facing a contradiction since your lack of literal acceptance contradicts Heb 4:4.

The only way NOT to have a contradiction, is to:
1) accept God's rest in Genesis as literal (literal acceptance brings agreement with Heb 4:4)
2) since the scripture doesn't state that God "needed" the rest, don't assume God "needed" the rest
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2009, 11:27:13 PM »



Ok, my first point is that Genesis does NOT say that God “needed” to rest, simply that he rested.  There are MANY actions God did, not for His need, but for our need.

I intend to read everything else... but I read on, I know it does not say that, directly.  My point is that, whether the author meant that God needed rest, or that he merely rested the idea that God ever "rests" is kinda laughable, if you believe it literally... I would say "that is all" but that is actually more to the point than saying God "needed" rest, because the very notion of a God who "rests" distorts the image of God as a being who always "is" without constraints.
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