Kerry : Tora Bora reference

[Donovan]

What is the case with the man in your community?  You have a link to any details?  I would love to read it.

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Here you go. He is not the only one.

http://www.samiomar.com/

[??????????]

What is the case with the man in your community?  You have a link to any details?  I would love to read it.

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Here you go. He is not the only one.

http://www.samiomar.com/

It would be nice if the font was large enough where I could actually read his page.

[The Duke]

What is the case with the man in your community?  You have a link to any details?  I would love to read it.

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Here you go. He is not the only one.

http://www.samiomar.com/

It would be nice if the font was large enough where I could actually read his page.

States,

Basically the guy was running websites that included incitements to violence against Jews and Americans.  The clear and present danger doctrine comes into play here pretty easily.

[Donovan]

It would be nice if the font was large enough where I could actually read his page.

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It is large enough on my computer. But you can try copying the text, pasting it in "Word" and then enlarging the font.

[??????????]

What is the case with the man in your community?  You have a link to any details?  I would love to read it.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Here you go. He is not the only one.

http://www.samiomar.com/

It would be nice if the font was large enough where I could actually read his page.

States,

Basically the guy was running websites that included incitements to violence against Jews and Americans.  The clear and present danger doctrine comes into play here pretty easily.

He belongs in jail for sedition then.

[Donovan]

States,

Basically the guy was running websites that included incitements to violence against Jews and Americans.  The clear and present danger doctrine comes into play here pretty easily.

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Mr. Ford,

that was the charge against him. A court of law proved that to be incorrect and the whole story was made up.


See what I mean. The Feds make a charge, he is found guilty by American citizens, and you still think the guy is gulity. Why because he is an Arab?

The man (Sami) organized a blood drive and saved many victims of 911, What have you do Mr. Ford? Sit around and say kill all the Arabs?

[??????????]

States,

Basically the guy was running websites that included incitements to violence against Jews and Americans.  The clear and present danger doctrine comes into play here pretty easily.

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Mr. Ford,

that was the charge against him. A court of law proved that to be incorrect and the whole story was made up.


See what I mean. The Feds make a charge, he is found guilty by American citizens, and you still think the guy is gulity. Why because he is an Arab?

The man (Sami) organized a blood drive and saved many victims of 911, What have you do Mr. Ford? Sit around and say kill all the Arabs?

Fundamentalist Islamic males from 18-35 are a threat to our national security. We don't know which ones are terrorists or are plotting/planning and which ones are innocent. I suggest a FDR style approach to this threat.

[Donovan]

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Fundamentalist Islamic males from 18-35 are a threat to our national security. We don't know which ones are terrorists or are plotting/planning and which ones are innocent. I suggest a FDR style approach to this threat.

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You want to put all Arabs in Concentration Camps?
What do think the reponse to that would be by Arabs and Muslims to whites living in Indonesia and the Middle East?

[??????????]

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Fundamentalist Islamic males from 18-35 are a threat to our national security. We don't know which ones are terrorists or are plotting/planning and which ones are innocent. I suggest a FDR style approach to this threat.

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You want to put all Arabs in Concentration Camps?
What do think the reponse to that would be by Arabs and Muslims to whites living in Indonesia and the Middle East?

Fact correction. FDR never put ANYONE in a concentration camp. That was Hitler. FDR interned (a little to extreme) every Japanese person. He would have actually been better to have just put military age Japanese males who were foreign born into confinement.

[Donovan]

You are clearly correct that they will nto start in on white visa violators.  You cannot start what is already finished.  The INS has mostly cleared its books in visa violators.  They knew they had to buckled down and look good before they all lost their jobs.  WHile there are  certainly still some people here who have violated their visas, they ar efar les sin number now than in a long, long time.

Where is the evidence that most people who were arrested and detained were not in violation of their visa?  This runs counter to the evidence you yourself posted earlier.

What is the case with the man in your community?  You have a link to any details?  I would love to read it.

Here is a link that proves he was found innocent of all charges:

http://www.klewtv.com/x5781.xml?ParentPageID=x5649&ContentID=x55909&Layout=KLEW.xsl&AdGroupID=x5781

Now tell me that this was fair. Over 1 and 1/2 years in jail for nothing. It was all fabricated by the Feds. Do a google search on the him.

"Sami Omar Al-Hussayen"

Just look at the pain prejudism and racial profiling can cause a family and a community.

[Donovan]

I would tend to think that hindsight proved that it was not needed. US-Japanese men fought very well against the Germans and helped to free the world you are now living in.

[The Duke]

This guy had his defense funded by the Saudi government and the folks at CAIR (where Husseyn was a high ranking member) and they bought a hihg priced legal team that during jury selection put a bunch of doves on the jury.  The aquittal came because of jury selection, and thats one of the reasons he cut a plea bargain to be deportyed before facing more charges.  The prosecutors learned their lesson.

[Donovan]

This guy had his defense funded by the Saudi government and the folks at CAIR (where Husseyn was a high ranking member) and they bought a hihg priced legal team that during jury selection put a bunch of doves on the jury.  The aquittal came because of jury selection, and thats one of the reasons he cut a plea bargain to be deportyed before facing more charges.  The prosecutors learned their lesson.

La Di Dah, so why have a trial then Mr. Ford, kill him, tag him, and bag him huh!

You are incorrect that he cut a plea bargain to be deported. He wanted to be deported long before this. The government would not let him go.

True, after a long period of time, the Saudi Government paid for his defense, as they did many others in the US.
But the entire community that knows him, knows he didn't do this.

Nevin, is not a high price lawyer. He is a normal lawyer from Boise Idaho. The team consisted of two lawyers against the Federal Government with a huge budget.

Jury selection does make a difference. But it was also not a jury of his peers was it? And if you believe that Boise Idaho is full of doves, you have screw loose.

You obviously were not at the trial, or read the transcripts. He was acquitted because it was demonstrated that he didn't have any connection to the organizations the government claimed he did.

Apparently, the entire community he lived in, dozens of law professors, every reporter at the trial, and even former members of the prosecution thought Sami was innocent. But you, sitting 1000 miles away, know better don't you Mr. Ford?
The government messed up. They spend huge sums of money and all of their charges were based on crimes committed over the internet that were knocked down by computer expert after computer expert. I even talked to them myself.
They didn’t want to look like idiots that wasted tons of money on nothing. So they kept after him.

Sami was charged with one basic kind of crime, that he entered the United States to run a web ring of terrorist sites.

Why would Sami enter the country to run a terrorist website when he could have run a website from anywhere in the World???


I think it is clear that you are the one ignoring the evidence.
You didn't know Sami, or his family. You don't know his community, you don't know what he did for the people here. You don't know how much he was against Sept 11th. and how he motivated people to help out the victims. You just sit on your butt in california and make unfair judgements against people you don't know based on their race and only the misinformation a bunch of misguided blood thirsty vengent Feds want you hear and know.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Fact correction. FDR never put ANYONE in a concentration camp. That was Hitler. FDR interned (a little to extreme) every Japanese person. He would have actually been better to have just put military age Japanese males who were foreign born into confinement.

Actually, the internment was only for those Americans of Japanese descent who lived on the West Coast.  For historical reasons, nearly all Japanese-Americans lived on the West Coast or in Hawaii.  It certainly was one of the stupidest overreactions ever done by our government and was done because of racism than because of military value.  Had there been merit in such actions, the Japanese-Americans of Hawaii should have been interned, but they never were.

As for whether the internment camps were concentration camps, that is a matter of semantic subtlety.  The two terms are one and the same except that concentration camps are seen as being harsher than is needed to achieve the goal of seperating those assigned to them from society at large.

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[J. J.]

JJ,

Don't you find it odd that they only enforce the 100+ restrictions of Visa's on Arab vistors, and only after 2001? Funny, how that is.

If you bothered to even read Visa restrictions you find out that about 99% of them violate at least one of them. So enforcing the law was never the issue. We have about 2-3 million illegal immigrants roaming the streets of Southwestern States.

It is obvious if you know any of these Arabs in the US that it is all BS. Many of Visa violations are also later to be found not in violation. I know that was the case in many of them.

The reason they charge with violation of the Visa is because you cannot argue against them in court, INS has total control.

No I don't find it odd at all that investigators investigating a crime, discover, in the course of that investigation, some other crime.   That, frankly, occurs a lot.

I'm also aware, as noted in the articles, that there are deportation hearings.  One of my friends has applied for assylum and is going through the process.

As I've said previously, your posts don't represent reality.

[Donovan]

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No I don't find it odd at all that investigators investigating a crime, discover, in the course of that investigation, some other crime.   That, frankly, occurs a lot.

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Either do I. And I never asked that question.

I'm also aware, as noted in the articles, that there are deportation hearings.  One of my friends has applied for assylum and is going through the process.

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Good for him, I think.

Most my posts reflect my perception of reality. And your posts don't reflect mine. That is why everyone communicates with each other.

Things are much different in my world than in your. In your world, you cannot live on $800 a month. In mine I can. Rent is cheap, about $400 a month for a large two bedroom apartment. Parking is free. About 70% of the people over 22 in my town have at least one college degree. 10%, or about 1 in 10 has a PhD or Professional degree. You also cannot go anywhere without someone knowing who you are. And if you don't know the person next to you, someone you know knows them.

In your world it is congested, overpopulated, and more conservative. Your population is less educated. Parking is hard to find. Rent near downtown is prohibative. You would never work for less than $20 a hour. And most of all, nobody knows each other.

Your reality sucks bigtime. I like mine so much better.

In terms of world view. I think most the world 60% + agrees with me on most social issues over you.

Take Care

[J. J.]

This was just sooooo good, I just to quote it:

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No I don't find it odd at all that investigators investigating a crime, discover, in the course of that investigation, some other crime.   That, frankly, occurs a lot.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Either do I. And I never asked that question.

I'm also aware, as noted in the articles, that there are deportation hearings.  One of my friends has applied for assylum and is going through the process.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Good for him, I think.

Most my posts reflect my perception of reality. And your posts don't reflect mine. That is why everyone communicates with each other.

Things are much different in my world than in your. In your world, you cannot live on $800 a month. In mine I can. Rent is cheap, about $400 a month for a large two bedroom apartment. Parking is free. About 70% of the people over 22 in my town have at least one college degree. 10%, or about 1 in 10 has a PhD or Professional degree. You also cannot go anywhere without someone knowing who you are. And if you don't know the person next to you, someone you know knows them.

In your world it is congested, overpopulated, and more conservative. Your population is less educated. Parking is hard to find. Rent near downtown is prohibative. You would never work for less than $20 a hour. And most of all, nobody knows each other.

Your reality sucks bigtime. I like mine so much better.

In terms of world view. I think most the world 60% + agrees with me on most social issues over you.

Take Care

First, yes you did ask the question:

JJ,

Don't you find it odd that they only enforce the 100+ restrictions of Visa's on Arab vistors, and only after 2001? Funny, how that is.

You can't even keep the story in own post straight.  That little mark (?), called a "question mark," usually indicates a question.

I hate to tell you this, but in my world, in my neighborhood, if you are paying $400 for a large two bedroom appartment, you are being robbed.  The rents for houses, not appartments, in my neighborhood doesn't reach $800 per month, and of course, most people own them.  Actually, I generally have no problem parking in my neighborhood and the care is about 12 from the front door right now; I don't pay anything for it.  Like I said, your posts bear no resemblance to reality.

I don't know where your reality is; it sounds like Fantasyland, perhaps a kindgom existing only in your own mind.  Generally there is treatment for this type of perception of reality.

I really have not ask 60% of the world what they think about these "social issues."  I really don't know too many countries that say, "Oh we really want to come in here and violate our laws relating to immigration."  Would you care to name a few?  (Note the question mark.)

I am aware that the 60% of the world that you speak of is not able to vote in US presidential election.  In some countries, they can't vote in their own, just like the Iraqis couldn't, at least with a choice between competing candidates.   Don't worry, I have no plans to vote in theirs in January.

[ATFFL]

You are clearly correct that they will nto start in on white visa violators.  You cannot start what is already finished.  The INS has mostly cleared its books in visa violators.  They knew they had to buckled down and look good before they all lost their jobs.  WHile there are  certainly still some people here who have violated their visas, they ar efar les sin number now than in a long, long time.

Where is the evidence that most people who were arrested and detained were not in violation of their visa?  This runs counter to the evidence you yourself posted earlier.

What is the case with the man in your community?  You have a link to any details?  I would love to read it.

Here is a link that proves he was found innocent of all charges:

http://www.klewtv.com/x5781.xml?ParentPageID=x5649&ContentID=x55909&Layout=KLEW.xsl&AdGroupID=x5781

Now tell me that this was fair. Over 1 and 1/2 years in jail for nothing. It was all fabricated by the Feds. Do a google search on the him.

"Sami Omar Al-Hussayen"

Just look at the pain prejudism and racial profiling can cause a family and a community.

Question #1: Orenthal James Simpson was found not guilty of murder by a jury.   Does that mean he did not commit the crime?

Question #2:  What were the lesser remaining charges?

Question #3: There appears to be a gap in time from the first site you link to the second site.  What happened that the government manmaged to keep him jailed in that time?

[Donovan]

This was just sooooo good, I just to quote it:

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No I don't find it odd at all that investigators investigating a crime, discover, in the course of that investigation, some other crime.   That, frankly, occurs a lot.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Either do I. And I never asked that question.

I'm also aware, as noted in the articles, that there are deportation hearings.  One of my friends has applied for assylum and is going through the process.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Good for him, I think.

Most my posts reflect my perception of reality. And your posts don't reflect mine. That is why everyone communicates with each other.

Things are much different in my world than in your. In your world, you cannot live on $800 a month. In mine I can. Rent is cheap, about $400 a month for a large two bedroom apartment. Parking is free. About 70% of the people over 22 in my town have at least one college degree. 10%, or about 1 in 10 has a PhD or Professional degree. You also cannot go anywhere without someone knowing who you are. And if you don't know the person next to you, someone you know knows them.

In your world it is congested, overpopulated, and more conservative. Your population is less educated. Parking is hard to find. Rent near downtown is prohibative. You would never work for less than $20 a hour. And most of all, nobody knows each other.

Your reality sucks bigtime. I like mine so much better.

In terms of world view. I think most the world 60% + agrees with me on most social issues over you.

Take Care

First, yes you did ask the question:

JJ,

Don't you find it odd that they only enforce the 100+ restrictions of Visa's on Arab vistors, and only after 2001? Funny, how that is.

You can't even keep the story in own post straight.  That little mark (?), called a "question mark," usually indicates a question.

I hate to tell you this, but in my world, in my neighborhood, if you are paying $400 for a large two bedroom appartment, you are being robbed.  The rents for houses, not appartments, in my neighborhood doesn't reach $800 per month, and of course, most people own them.  Actually, I generally have no problem parking in my neighborhood and the care is about 12 from the front door right now; I don't pay anything for it.  Like I said, your posts bear no resemblance to reality.

I don't know where your reality is; it sounds like Fantasyland, perhaps a kindgom existing only in your own mind.  Generally there is treatment for this type of perception of reality.

I really have not ask 60% of the world what they think about these "social issues."  I really don't know too many countries that say, "Oh we really want to come in here and violate our laws relating to immigration."  Would you care to name a few?  (Note the question mark.)

I am aware that the 60% of the world that you speak of is not able to vote in US presidential election.  In some countries, they can't vote in their own, just like the Iraqis couldn't, at least with a choice between competing candidates.   Don't worry, I have no plans to vote in theirs in January.

JJ,

You expect the people on this forum to believe that PA rent is less than $400 a month, you are the one in need of treatment my friend.

Go here: http://www.forrent.com/search/default.asp?city=&state=PA&nearby=1&price_min=250&price_max=500&errormsg=Please%20specify%20a%20city%20and%20state%20or%20choose%20a%20metro%20area%20from%20the%20selections%20below. Find me a place under $400 a month that is 2 bedroom in the entire state?

Take Care

[Donovan]

You are clearly correct that they will nto start in on white visa violators.  You cannot start what is already finished.  The INS has mostly cleared its books in visa violators.  They knew they had to buckled down and look good before they all lost their jobs.  WHile there are  certainly still some people here who have violated their visas, they ar efar les sin number now than in a long, long time.

Where is the evidence that most people who were arrested and detained were not in violation of their visa?  This runs counter to the evidence you yourself posted earlier.

What is the case with the man in your community?  You have a link to any details?  I would love to read it.

Here is a link that proves he was found innocent of all charges:

http://www.klewtv.com/x5781.xml?ParentPageID=x5649&ContentID=x55909&Layout=KLEW.xsl&AdGroupID=x5781

Now tell me that this was fair. Over 1 and 1/2 years in jail for nothing. It was all fabricated by the Feds. Do a google search on the him.

"Sami Omar Al-Hussayen"

Just look at the pain prejudism and racial profiling can cause a family and a community.


Question #1: Orenthal James Simpson was found not guilty of murder by a jury.   Does that mean he did not commit the crime?

Well, for one, OJ was tried by other African Americans. Sami was tried from a Jury of white people from the second most conservative state in the Union. Second, the case against him was build on the idea that he came into this country to run terror related websites. This holds no merit because it would have been easier for him to run terrorist websites from the Middle East then Idaho. He didn't need to come here to do that. Makes no sense. Third, the computer experts testified and showed in court that it was impossible for Sami to do what they said he was doing. Fourth, all of their tape records of Sami and his wife were translated and read to the jury who found nothing in it that suggest any hint of terrorist planning. Finally, how do you disprove a negative?

Question #2:  What were the lesser remaining charges?

 I don't know all of the charges, just that they were all proven false by the jury and related to stuff he did on the internet.

Question #3: There appears to be a gap in time from the first site you link to the second site.  What happened that the government manmaged to keep him jailed in that time?

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The government kept him locked up for all that time. The gap in time on the page was because the family was deported because they couldn't stay if he wasn't finishing his degree. Which he couldn't because he was in jail.

[The Duke]

Now that I'm back in LA, I see Donovan has said another false statement.

Sami did in fact cut a deal.  He agreed to deportation in exchange for additional Visa charges being dropped.

Second, do you think there aren't 12 doves in Boise?  Do you think there aren't 12 hawks in LA?

[J. J.]

JJ,

You expect the people on this forum to believe that PA rent is less than $400 a month, you are the one in need of treatment my friend.

Go here: http://www.forrent.com/search/default.asp?city=&state=PA&nearby=1&price_min=250&price_max=500&errormsg=Please%20specify%20a%20city%20and%20state%20or%20choose%20a%20metro%20area%20from%20the%20selections%20below. Find me a place under $400 a month that is 2 bedroom in the entire state?

Take Care

Sure, if you promise not to move into my neighborhood.  My landlady owns several buildings, with two bedroom apartments; rent for them is under $400.

Actually, in my neighborhood, the bidggest problem is finding a two bedroom appartment; most of the rentals are houses. One advertized in Tuesday's paper, with two bedrooms, downstairs room, a bathroom, and a basement, is $500 per month; now, of course that is about 250% the space for 125% of you want to pay.  Even in the hotly contested 13 CD (not in my neighborhood), you rent to own a three bedroom house with a yard for $650.  All of these are in the Philadelphia Inquirer Sept 28, 2004.  If you are really interested, get a copy.

It's hard to find a house for $800 per month, which is what you've claimed an apartment would cost, because they are much cheaper than that.  I'm sure the owner would let you pay them $800 per month, if you'd ask nicely.

BTW, every real estate listing is not on the web, in reality.

Once again we have Donovan's post versus reality.  Reality wins every time.  :-)

[Donovan]

 

Second, do you think there aren't 12 doves in Boise?  Do you think there aren't 12 hawks in LA?

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Yes, Mr. Ford I do think that there are at least 12. But I am also willing to bet that it was not possible for the defense to get all doves in a state that is heavily conservative.

I am also willing to bet that all that LA air is cutting the oxygen from Mr. Ford's brain if thinks that 12 people are so dumb as to believe that Sami came into the country to run a website for a terrorist group from Idaho when he could of run the website from anywhere the world.

Let me explain to you this way Mr. Ford. If Sami wanted to run websites and that was the reason he came to United States, and the Feds stated, he could have developed the websites, fixed them, and designed them through the internet from his house. Guess that logic escaped you huh?

Second, many of the charges were so stupid that the Judge, a known conservative, and pro-death penalty military veteran, threw the cases out of his court. A classic dove if you will.

But as we all know, John Ford, seating in California, knows more about this case then all the Law Professors, Reporters, and community members that have know Sami and the case for at least two years.

To bad you were not at court testifing against Sami Mr. Ford. With your great intellect, you could have made many arguments about why Sami came here to work on websites and live in a old moldy university housing complex, stuffing his family of five in a tiny two bedroom unit. You can explain why he used a dial up connection on an old 95 windows computer instead of cable internet on a windows 2000 system in Saudi Arabia. According to you Mr. Ford, with your vast legal knowledge and indepth study of the facts, can explain why a high classed member of Arab society, as you claim, would make a move to subject himself and his family to near poverty conditions and inferior technology isolated from family and his Islamic community?
Second, why would Sami persue a PhD. that requires about 60 hours a week of work. He could have just gotten a Master's which is less costly and would have given him time to do other things.

Why would he move on campus, and instead not off campus. The University can access all your information and search your computer with no problem. Off campus he would have been given more freedom.

Perhaps you could have explained to the judge and jury, how it is that no evidence exists on Sami's computer of the crimes in which the Feds are accusing him?

Finally, you can explain how it is possible for this terrorist to have time plotting the destruction of the US with a wife, three children, president of a student organization, active in the local community, such as running blood drives, getting a PhD, and working. Boy, the guy must have been a great time manager huh?

Nope, the entire jury saw the case for what it was. A mix up by the government, and the government was to embarressed to say whoops, we made a mistake.

Mr. Ford, you are seriously out of your league.
 

[Donovan]

JJ,

You expect the people on this forum to believe that PA rent is less than $400 a month, you are the one in need of treatment my friend.

Go here: http://www.forrent.com/search/default.asp?city=&state=PA&nearby=1&price_min=250&price_max=500&errormsg=Please%20specify%20a%20city%20and%20state%20or%20choose%20a%20metro%20area%20from%20the%20selections%20below. Find me a place under $400 a month that is 2 bedroom in the entire state?

Take Care

Sure, if you promise not to move into my neighborhood.  My landlady owns several buildings, with two bedroom apartments; rent for them is under $400.

Actually, in my neighborhood, the bidggest problem is finding a two bedroom appartment; most of the rentals are houses. One advertized in Tuesday's paper, with two bedrooms, downstairs room, a bathroom, and a basement, is $500 per month; now, of course that is about 250% the space for 125% of you want to pay.  Even in the hotly contested 13 CD (not in my neighborhood), you rent to own a three bedroom house with a yard for $650.  All of these are in the Philadelphia Inquirer Sept 28, 2004.  If you are really interested, get a copy.

It's hard to find a house for $800 per month, which is what you've claimed an apartment would cost, because they are much cheaper than that.  I'm sure the owner would let you pay them $800 per month, if you'd ask nicely.

BTW, every real estate listing is not on the web, in reality.

Once again we have Donovan's post versus reality.  Reality wins every time.  :-)

Well then, give me some links? Otherwise it s just your word. And frankly, that is much to go on.

[??????????]

Oh lord, it's Alfie redux.