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Author Topic: Constitution Development Comment Box  (Read 8514 times)
Purple State
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« on: March 29, 2009, 08:11:21 pm »
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This thread is for the discussion of anything pertaining to the current discussions on government proposals. The links to the different voting/debates can be found in the stickied Convention Noticeboard thread (thanks MasterJedi).

You may utilize this thread for random comments or concerns that don't directly relate to the advancement of debate on the proposals.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 09:07:31 pm by Mideast Assembly Speaker Purple State »Logged

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Purple State
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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2009, 09:27:25 am »
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Current Voting Results (With 6 delegates voting)

Parliamentary Universalism
1st Pref. = 3
2nd Pref. = 1

Presidential Parliamentarian
1st Pref. = 3
2nd Pref. = 1

Presidential Universalism
1st Pref. = 0
2nd Pref. = 3

Bicameral Nonparliamentarian
1st Pref. = 0
2nd Pref. = 1

Unitarian Empire
1st Pref. = 0
2nd Pref. = 0
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2009, 07:26:09 pm »
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I have come to understand that I'm not going to start caring about Atlasia again in the (very) near future

Welcome aboard!

Well with comments like this, I'm certainly optimistic about the prospects of a universal system! Roll Eyes

Please, delegates, vote for the expanded system that gives people an office who actually give a damn, the Presidential Parliamentarian model.
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Smid
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2009, 07:36:18 pm »
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I have come to understand that I'm not going to start caring about Atlasia again in the (very) near future

Welcome aboard!

Well with comments like this, I'm certainly optimistic about the prospects of a universal system! Roll Eyes

Please, delegates, vote for the expanded system that gives people an office who actually give a damn, the Presidential Parliamentarian model.

I'm not sure if you don't bother reading what I write, if you don't understand what I write, or if you deliberately misrepresent what I write, but as I have stated over and over again: A universal parliamentarian model still has elections, they are for the same number of positions as now and they are for people who are interested in filling the roles.

I find it very disappointing that you don't bother contributing in any way other than to criticise. If you put as much effort into bringing forth ideas as you have to criticising them, I would be more confident that we would have, as you claimed to desire, a "battle of ideas." You're not interested in a battle of ideas, you're only interested in trying to drag them down. You had a preconceived opinion, and have blindly refused to even consider other options or to attempt to improve on them.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2009, 07:44:34 pm »
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I have come to understand that I'm not going to start caring about Atlasia again in the (very) near future

Welcome aboard!

Well with comments like this, I'm certainly optimistic about the prospects of a universal system! Roll Eyes

Please, delegates, vote for the expanded system that gives people an office who actually give a damn, the Presidential Parliamentarian model.

I'm not sure if you don't bother reading what I write, if you don't understand what I write, or if you deliberately misrepresent what I write, but as I have stated over and over again: A universal parliamentarian model still has elections, they are for the same number of positions as now and they are for people who are interested in filling the roles.

I find it very disappointing that you don't bother contributing in any way other than to criticise. If you put as much effort into bringing forth ideas as you have to criticising them, I would be more confident that we would have, as you claimed to desire, a "battle of ideas." You're not interested in a battle of ideas, you're only interested in trying to drag them down. You had a preconceived opinion, and have blindly refused to even consider other options or to attempt to improve on them.

We can barely maintain the number of offices we have now. You're trying to have it both ways (throw everyone into office & have elections) and you'll simply end up destroying the entire system. Elections would be entirely uncompetitive or the Lower House would be the equivalent of a garbage dump.

I'm more disappointed that you didn't take my comments to heart in another thread I made discussing this very point.

Quote from: Me
2: A Manpower Shortage.

The assumption is that the Upper House in a Parliamentary Universalist system will have less people in it than the Lower House. This is a serious gamble though, because that would mean that the Lower House would need at least 16+ active/semi-active members or more compared to the Upper House's active/semi-active 15, while still having enough members to hold competitive and interesting elections that just doesn't shuffle the deck chairs.

Atlasia has 111, give or take a few, citizens overall. We can safely assume that a third of these are completely dead citizens who take little to no interest at all. This leaves us with roughly 80 citizens. But wait a moment, we only have 63 voters, give or take a couple, in the last major election. Certainly we don't have 63 active members of the game that take an active interest, we have trouble running Senate elections competitively, especially regional ones, and only about half the delegates here are active in the convention, and several of the people who took the time to vote never really posted in the game since, and certainly the zombies never took an interest in the Government, or they would have run for elections. So lets say we have 40 people who take at least a minimal interest, and that's being generous.

Running with that kind estimate, we would have 40 or so people in the Lower House who would show any interest at all. But again, there's a problem. At least 15 of these people have to run for elections to fill all the Seats in the Upper House (Senate) or the legislature. Assuming all 40 members are active, which isn't very likely, you end up with a Lower House of 25 active members, and an Upper House of 15 active members.

Does that really have a serious difference to it? The Houses effectively do the same thing, and 10 less members isn't going to give a Senate any more serious powers than a member of the House of Representatives. The lack of any serious differences in power and the low amount of active members overall would carry over into the elections, basically making the elections to the Senate/Upper house not very competitive or exciting at all.

Quote from: Me, Not being a boring naysayer
A Presidential Parliamentarian system solves many of the problems you'd already have. Instead of having two identical bodies, with one comprised of all the citizens, you have one slightly expanded (perhaps 15-20, but no more than 20 at the most) unicameral legislature that is elected by the people as the Senate is now. Regional governments will still exist, if they choose to have governments at all.

A Prime Minister is elected by the expanded & elected Senate, and a President as a representative of the people, elected by the citizens of Atlasia, holding powers of their own (one to introduce referenda, another to call for elections, for example) to keep have two leading positions that make the highest offices in the land more exciting.

It retains the system of solely having elections instead of handing people offices, makes the legislature unique and actually have a point, creates an incentive to rise up in offices and even hold opposing leadership roles for the country, expands the government to still allow for more people to participate (and still allow for Committees) without all of the problems associated with a Universalist system, and simply keeps the perfect balance between a social experience, the government sim, and an election sim.

I also expressed support, interest, and posed inquiries about Lief's proposal which I've supported since he suggested it. I came in here with no notions of what I already supported. In fact, before Lief came along, I had no clue what I was going to support.

Pre-conceived notions were clearly held more by the Universalists before this convention board was even created.
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Purple State
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« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2009, 03:41:27 pm »
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6 delegates to go for the vote. Don't make me hunt you guys down...
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CultureKing
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« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2009, 05:35:23 pm »
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6 delegates to go for the vote. Don't make me hunt you guys down...

Sorry, I wanted to see how the vote was going before throwing myself in.

Wink
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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2009, 05:55:11 pm »
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Could we get updated results?
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2009, 06:19:07 pm »
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Could we get updated results?

While it looks a little close right now, it seems as if a Universalism victory is inevitable and it was inevitable coming into this convention.
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Devilman88
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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2009, 06:39:13 pm »
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Results so far

Parliamentary Universalism
1st Pref. = 6
2nd Pref. = 2

Presidential Parliamentarian
1st Pref. = 5
2nd Pref. = 4

Presidential Universalism
1st Pref. = 2
2nd Pref. = 7

Bicameral Nonparliamentarian
1st Pref. = 0
2nd Pref. = 2

Unitarian Empire
1st Pref. = 1
2nd Pref. = 1
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Purple State
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2009, 08:09:09 pm »
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Current Results (With 15 delegates voting)

Parliamentary Universalism
1st Pref. = 6
2nd Pref. = 2
TOTAL = 7 > 4 PASS

Presidential Parliamentarian
1st Pref. = 5
2nd Pref. = 4
TOTAL = 7 > 4 PASS

Presidential Universalism
1st Pref. = 3
2nd Pref. = 6
TOTAL = 6 > 4 PASS

Bicameral Nonparliamentarian
1st Pref. = 0
2nd Pref. = 2
TOTAL = 1 > 4 FAILING

Unitarian Empire
1st Pref. = 1
2nd Pref. = 1
TOTAL = 1.5 > 4 FAILING

I am pretty sure those are the correct numbers. The top 3 proposals have passed and so will be discussed. I will leave voting open for probably another day.



Could we get updated results?

While it looks a little close right now, it seems as if a Universalism victory is inevitable and it was inevitable coming into this convention.

There isn't only one winner. And the top 3 are pretty close in terms of totals (7, 7, 6)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 10:34:41 pm by Mideast Assembly Speaker Purple State »Logged

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Lief
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2009, 10:24:32 pm »
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Well, it looks like universalism is more popular than non-universalism, at the moment at least.

Sad
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Purple State
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2009, 10:35:26 pm »
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Well, it looks like universalism is more popular than non-universalism, at the moment at least.

Sad

They all get built, so it's no longer about what is more popular now, but what ends up looking like the best model down the road.

You can Smiley again.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2009, 11:45:56 pm »
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Well, it looks like universalism is more popular than non-universalism, at the moment at least.

Sad

Yeah that was more of my point, even if Presidential Parliamentarian is tied with Parliamentary Universalism, when you combine the votes for Universalist systems overall, its not close at all.
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Franzl
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« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2009, 03:06:31 am »
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Shocking, absolutely shocking that Atlasia could place universalism so highly.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2009, 03:10:13 am »
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I find it amusing I'm the one accused of trying to tear everyone else down when, aside from Smid, no one has attempted to defend Universalism, and no one has comments about my thread discussing my feelings toward it.

But har har, Franzl.
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Franzl
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« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2009, 03:11:02 am »
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That's not the point, we're not voting on a final system here.

We're voting on the systems that we will discuss further. Any valid criticisms will certainly be considered throughout that process.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2009, 03:15:30 am »
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That's not the point, we're not voting on a final system here.

We're voting on the systems that we will discuss further. Any valid criticisms will certainly be considered throughout that process.

Most delegates here arn't really active in the nuts and bolts process so far of brainstorming and putting together government proposals and half the people who have voted so far haven't really been that active in the Convention. Plus, we're down two delegates. I think we can safely assume that the final vote tally here will be pretty similar to the final vote on the drafted Constitutions.

It takes conversation and debate to change people's minds, if people haven't participated in that so far, I don't really think many minds are going to shift.

(Say what you want about me, at least you and I are participating.)
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« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2009, 03:18:36 am »
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I did read your long post about universalism, and I think some of it really is valid, more specifically the lack of difference in power between the Lower and Upper House, especially if the Upper House isn't even all that exclusive.

That makes me consider if we can give the Upper House greater power in a number of areas in a universal system, you know, something that would make people especially interested in holding a seat there.

I'm not sure yet what I propose, but I do like the principle of universalism, and it's something that needs to be discussed.
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Devilman88
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« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2009, 07:38:02 am »
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I came after the delegates were picked so I'm not a delegate, but I would love to get involved trying to help you guys.

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« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2009, 05:42:11 pm »
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As would I. I would just like to point out that a universal system tends to defeat itself. When everyone is a member of the government, it makes the lower house obsolete. All that would do is allow people to vote and discuss bills. As has been mentioned, time and time again, this would turn the game from an election sim to a governement sim.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2009, 05:43:26 pm »
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...and I have yet to hear why this is a heinous sin.

There's been plenty of talk about how more elections=goodlier and how to go about achieving it, but none about why this is supposedly the case.
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persepolis
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« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2009, 05:48:10 pm »
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...and I have yet to hear why this is a heinous sin.

There's been plenty of talk about how more elections=goodlier and how to go about achieving it, but none about why this is supposedly the case.

It makes you want to work for something. Like the law of supply and demand. There is a low supply of governemnt seats in a non-universal system, therefore people will work harder and be more active with the seats that are there. In a universal system, there is a high supply, so people do not need to work to get the seat, promting stangnance and low activity.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2009, 05:53:35 pm »
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...and I have yet to hear why this is a heinous sin.

There's been plenty of talk about how more elections=goodlier and how to go about achieving it, but none about why this is supposedly the case.

It makes you want to work for something. Like the law of supply and demand. There is a low supply of governemnt seats in a non-universal system, therefore people will work harder and be more active with the seats that are there. In a universal system, there is a high supply, so people do not need to work to get the seat, promting stangnance and low activity.

Indeed, creating a system where everyone is given an office stagnates the system at some point, when the government sim will inevitably become a cycle of "Make law, repeal law, repeal the repeal of the law, repeal the repeal of the repeal of the law, etc etc." and there will be only redundant elections on the side if elections at all.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2009, 09:25:24 pm »
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...and I have yet to hear why this is a heinous sin.

There's been plenty of talk about how more elections=goodlier and how to go about achieving it, but none about why this is supposedly the case.

It makes you want to work for something. Like the law of supply and demand. There is a low supply of governemnt seats in a non-universal system, therefore people will work harder and be more active with the seats that are there. In a universal system, there is a high supply, so people do not need to work to get the seat, promting stangnance and low activity.

But how are people working harder and being more active on this game?  Have you read the news coverage for any of the most recent elections?  Nothing has happened, essentially, that hasn't been forced upon the system by external forces of nature (i.e. Jas) which would operate just as much in a universalist system.
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