Parliamentary Universalism (Motion at Vote)

[bgwah]

I would prefer not to have a President; IMO, one of the strengths of the original proposal is that there isn't one.

The less this system looks like the United States, the more likely it is to fail. IMO... And lack of a President is a pretty glaring omission.

A semi-random thought: It might sound silly, but we shouldn't use words like "Parliament." Can't we just stick with Congress? Even if the proposed system resembles a parliament far more or w/e?

I just worry that new players may see all of these things like "Prime Minister" and "Parliament" and be totally uninterested because they're interested in American government and elections (after all, they're at the U.S. Election Atlas). Let us not forget the failure of Antilla.

[afleitch]

I would prefer not to have a President; IMO, one of the strengths of the original proposal is that there isn't one.

The less this system looks like the United States, the more likely it is to fail. IMO... And lack of a President is a pretty glaring omission.

Doesn't seem to have affected things on here for the past 6 months...

(ducks)

[bgwah]

That's fine. I'm just telling you, as someone who is more representative of an average Atlasian, that a lot of your guys' proposals are not interesting at all and will fail to attract any significant number of people.

The elections are always what have been fun in Atlasia. Not this government-simulation-bullsh**t.

[afleitch]

That's fine. I'm just telling you, as someone who is more representative of an average Atlasian, that a lot of your guys' proposals are not interesting at all and will fail to attract any significant number of people.

The elections are always what have been fun in Atlasia. Not this government-simulation-bullsh**t.

There is a division between those who participate in government and vote, and those who just vote, The latter will not see anything change; they still get to turn out and vote (regardless of the government system) Those who participate in government either are part of the ConCon already or follow it. So a game is being designed for those who actually want to play both sides of it; doesn't mean it will put anyone else off. Besides as we know it's easier to change voting systems than government systems - so any 'fall out' can be easily re-dressed through legislation (by those who play that side of the game )

[bgwah]

Oh, what a bunch of drivel... We saw the same people (Verin and a bunch of foreigners, among others) try their wacky ideas out in Antilla and it was a spectacular failure. And now the same people are trying to turn Atlasia into Antilla 2.0, and I'm simply pointing out that we should learn from past mistakes.

The simple fact that our current system has lasted, with minor changes here and there, for over five years should suggest that we're already doing something right. I highly doubt there are many other (if any) simulations out there that have lasted as long.

[afleitch]

Oh, what a bunch of drivel... We saw the same people (Verin and a bunch of foreigners, among others) try their wacky ideas out in Antilla and it was a spectacular failure. And now the same people are trying to turn Atlasia into Antilla 2.0, and I'm simply pointing out that we should learn from past mistakes.

The simple fact that our current system has lasted, with minor changes here and there, for over five years should suggest that we're already doing something right. I highly doubt there are many other (if any) simulations out there that have lasted as long.

Drivel? You know why Antilla didn't work? Because as I've learned people don't have the time for two games on the one forum. It was created because at the time there wasn't a hope in hell's chance of anything happening on this game that remotely reflected the game people wanted. I've been playing it for 4 years and it's been immensely difficult to change (which is why we shouldn't rush this).

If you want to keep things as it, make a case for it. Simple as that.

[bgwah]

Drivel? You know why Antilla didn't work? Because as I've learned people don't have the time for two games on the one forum. It was created because at the time there wasn't a hope in hell's chance of anything happening on this game that remotely reflected the game people wanted.

Sorry, but I don't buy that.

If you want to keep things as it, make a case for it. Simple as that.

I wouldn't have called for a Convention if I wanted things to stay exactly the same. But I clearly don't support such far-reaching and sweeping changes as some of you do. And I fully intend to make a case against such changes.

[ilikeverin]

Go ahead.  I have yet to hear it.

(Though I do agree with you on the nomenclature)

[Purple State]

If you want to keep things as it, make a case for it. Simple as that.

I wouldn't have called for a Convention if I wanted things to stay exactly the same. But I clearly don't support such far-reaching and sweeping changes as some of you do. And I fully intend to make a case against such changes.

I would greatly appreciate your input in discussions in this board. I would recommend you pick whichever proposal you agree with most and attempt to shape it. The proposal outlines pretty much cover all the possible forms we can take. The outlines are broad enough and changeable enough to allow flexibility.

I really hope that all the delegates would contribute, discuss, debate, etc. If you don't like the way a proposal is going, make your voice heard, write your own Article. But bear in mind there are different proposals. You shouldn't argue that Universalism be less universal. Instead, ignore it and work on shaping a different proposal that you do agree with in theory, while the universalists work on their project.

[ilikeverin]

Should we get something moving?

[Purple State]

Should we get something moving?

If Smid could put his plan into an article? Or just tell me what to bring up and I'll do it.

[Bacon King]

I agree that we should have a "Congress" not a "Parliament" and  a "President" not "Prime Minister", for the reasons bgwah stated.

[ilikeverin]

Should we get something moving?

If Smid could put his plan into an article? Or just tell me what to bring up and I'll do it.

Actually I'm not sure what to bring up anymore

I agree that we should have a "Congress" not a "Parliament" and  a "President" not "Prime Minister", for the reasons bgwah stated.

I agree, but I think those differences are largely cosmetic and can be changed in final drafting.

[Purple State]

Should we get something moving?

If Smid could put his plan into an article? Or just tell me what to bring up and I'll do it.

Actually I'm not sure what to bring up anymore

I am largely running blind on where to direct universalism. I don't want to step on anyone's toes and appear to push an agenda that goes against the wishes of the more universalist delegates. I am relying on you and Smid to tell me what to bring forward. Just tell me what you want from the discussion thus far and I'll bring it right up to a vote.

[ilikeverin]

How about we bring forward two relatively uncontroversial portions?

Chapter _ The Judiciary

8(1) Legal disputes shall be heard in the High Court of Atlasia.

8(2) The High Court of Atlasia shall be the Court of Last Resort.

8(3) There shall be three Justices of the High Court of Atlasia.

8(4) Justices of the High Court of Atlasia shall be selected to serve four-month terms.

8(5) Justices of the High Court of Atlasia may serve more than one term.

8(6) Justices of the High Court of Atlasia shall be selected by the Upper House of Atlasia.

8(7) The qualification of a Member of Parliament or a Senator to vote in the election of a Justice of the High Court of Atlasia shall be the same as that in Section 2(.

8(8 ) Justices of the High Court must resign any other office they occupy, including the office of Member of Parliament in the Lower House, or the office of Senator.

Chapter _ Changing the Constitution
9(1) Any section of this Constitution may be altered, or deleted, or a new section added, by the following procedure:
(i)   A Bill containing the reworded section, or the section to be deleted, or the section to be added must be introduced to the Lower House of Parliament as a Private Member’s Bill,
(ii)   The Bill may be debated as any other Bill,
(iii)   The Bill shall be voted on by Members of the Lower House, as any other Bill,
(iv)   If the Bill is passed by the Lower House, it shall be referred to the Senate for ratification,
(v)   The Bill may be debated in the Senate as any other Bill,
(vi)   The Bill shall be voted on by Senators, as any other Bill.

9(2) Voting to change the constitution referred to in Section 9(1)(iii) and (vi) shall be open for one week.

9(3) The qualification to vote for or against a Bill to amend the Constitution, whether in a House of Parliament or in a Regional Caucus shall be the same as that in Section 2(8 ).

[Purple State]

Sounds good. I hereby bring the following articles to the floor for a vote. Please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain on each article respectively. All numbering is simply to denote some number and is subject to change based on eventual placement. Brackets [] denote subject to change due to crafting of other Articles.

Article _: The Judiciary

8(1) Legal disputes shall be heard in the High Court of Atlasia.

8(2) The High Court of Atlasia shall be the Court of Last Resort.

8(3) There shall be three Justices of the High Court of Atlasia.

8(4) Justices of the High Court of Atlasia shall be selected to serve four-month terms.

8(5) Justices of the High Court of Atlasia may serve more than one term.

8(6) Justices of the High Court of Atlasia shall be selected by the Upper House of Atlasia.

8(7) The qualification of a Member of Parliament or a Senator to vote in the election of a Justice of the High Court of Atlasia shall be the same as that in Section [2(8 )].

8(8 ) Justices of the High Court may not hold any other office, including the office of Member of Parliament in the Lower House, or the office of Senator.

Article _: Changing the Constitution
9(1) Any section of this Constitution may be altered, or deleted, or a new section added, by the following procedure:
(i)   A Bill containing the reworded section, or the section to be deleted, or the section to be added must be introduced to the Lower House of Parliament as a Private Member’s Bill,
(ii)   The Bill may be debated as any other Bill,
(iii)   The Bill shall be voted on by Members of the Lower House, as any other Bill,
(iv)   If the Bill is passed by the Lower House, it shall be referred to the Senate for ratification,
(v)   The Bill may be debated in the Senate as any other Bill,
(vi)   The Bill shall be voted on by Senators, as any other Bill.

9(2) Voting to change the constitution referred to in Section 9(1)(iii) and (vi) shall be open for one week.

9(3) The qualification to vote for or against a Bill to amend the Constitution, whether in a House of Parliament or in a Regional Caucus shall be the same as that in Section 2(8 ).

[ilikeverin]

I vote "Yup" to both, o/c

[Devilman88]

Aye to both.

[Fmr. Emperor PiT]

     Wait, does that say that the Constitution can be amended by a simple majority in both houses?

[Purple State]

     Wait, does that say that the Constitution can be amended by a simple majority in both houses?

It's universalism, so it would be a majority of all Atlasians in agreement. It gave me pause as well, but this is the proposal thus far. It is easier to pass it and edit it after.

[Fmr. Emperor PiT]

     Wait, does that say that the Constitution can be amended by a simple majority in both houses?

It's universalism, so it would be a majority of all Atlasians in agreement. It gave me pause as well, but this is the proposal thus far. It is easier to pass it and edit it after.

     Even if it is a majority of all Atlasians, I still don't like it. That's how you end up with hundreds of amendments cheapening the process like in California or Texas.

     Aye, Abstain.

[Smid]

Aye, Aye.

I recognise PiT's concerns, perhaps we can move an amendment to that later.

[President Marokai]

Aye, Abstain

[PASOK Leader Hashemite]

Aye/Aye.

[Daniel Adams]

Aye, Abstain.