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Author Topic: Parliamentary Bicameralism (Discussion Open)  (Read 44146 times)
Franzl
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« Reply #225 on: April 23, 2009, 09:47:33 am »
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Aye, but an article for impeachment of the President needs to be put in either Article 1 or 3.

Aye with the above mentiond condition.
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« Reply #226 on: April 23, 2009, 09:53:40 am »
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Aye, I guess, though I really think that electing people from the regions is a bad idea. Which elections are currently more exciting and competitive, our national Senate elections or our regional Senate elections? Often we're lucky if more than one person runs for a regional seat.
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« Reply #227 on: April 23, 2009, 10:57:53 am »
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Aye, I guess, though I really think that electing people from the regions is a bad idea. Which elections are currently more exciting and competitive, our national Senate elections or our regional Senate elections? Often we're lucky if more than one person runs for a regional seat.

Things can be edited later on. It's important that we get something no. Clearly no guarantee that regions will even exist.
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« Reply #228 on: April 23, 2009, 02:44:43 pm »
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Nay. Draft a version without Regions and then add them in later if the Convention supports them. Starting out with Regions in the plan biases it towards the introduction of Regions.
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« Reply #229 on: April 23, 2009, 02:45:51 pm »
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Nay. Draft a version without Regions and then add them in later if the Convention supports them. Starting out with Regions in the plan biases it towards the introduction of Regions.

Wouldn't it be unbiased as it maintains the status quo? Rather than a blatant change that shows bias towards the no-region people?
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #230 on: April 23, 2009, 05:45:43 pm »
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Nay. Draft a version without Regions and then add them in later if the Convention supports them. Starting out with Regions in the plan biases it towards the introduction of Regions.

Wouldn't it be unbiased as it maintains the status quo? Rather than a blatant change that shows bias towards the no-region people?

Oh, come now... no matter which way you set it, you are automatically biasing it against one way or another.  We're looking for the best possible solution here.
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« Reply #231 on: April 23, 2009, 06:05:02 pm »
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Nay. Draft a version without Regions and then add them in later if the Convention supports them. Starting out with Regions in the plan biases it towards the introduction of Regions.

Wouldn't it be unbiased as it maintains the status quo? Rather than a blatant change that shows bias towards the no-region people?

Oh, come now... no matter which way you set it, you are automatically biasing it against one way or another.  We're looking for the best possible solution here.

This is just a Draft that can be changed. Our goal right now is to get a draft of all three so we can make a vote it them, I believe. Once we know which one we will use we can edit it more. It is going to be very hard to try to find three different constitutionals that everyone agree on.
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Daniel Adams
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« Reply #232 on: April 23, 2009, 06:27:29 pm »
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Aye
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Verily
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« Reply #233 on: April 23, 2009, 08:18:26 pm »
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Nay. Draft a version without Regions and then add them in later if the Convention supports them. Starting out with Regions in the plan biases it towards the introduction of Regions.

Wouldn't it be unbiased as it maintains the status quo? Rather than a blatant change that shows bias towards the no-region people?

No. It is always less biased to build up from minimalism than to "build down", so to speak, regardless of what the issue is under consideration.

You might say, for example, that it would be less biased towards any constitutional position to start with the current Constitution and modify from there than it is to begin with a new Constitution. But that would be false; beginning with the current Constitution as a base would bias the Convention towards a Constitution more strongly resembling the current Constitution.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 08:21:12 pm by Verily »Logged
Devilman88
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« Reply #234 on: April 23, 2009, 09:00:28 pm »
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Well, lets vote for this and if it passes then we can have a vote on taking the Regions out.
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Fine...I Made This More Civil
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« Reply #235 on: April 23, 2009, 09:45:10 pm »
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Well, lets vote for this and if it passes then we can have a vote on taking the Regions out.

I suggest the regions vote go first, since the part about the regions is included in the outline you are about to vote on. However, it is a good idea to vote on the regions and the actual outline separately.
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« Reply #236 on: April 24, 2009, 12:31:42 am »
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aye
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #237 on: April 24, 2009, 01:38:06 am »
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Nay. Draft a version without Regions and then add them in later if the Convention supports them. Starting out with Regions in the plan biases it towards the introduction of Regions.

Wouldn't it be unbiased as it maintains the status quo? Rather than a blatant change that shows bias towards the no-region people?

No. It is always less biased to build up from minimalism than to "build down", so to speak, regardless of what the issue is under consideration.

You might say, for example, that it would be less biased towards any constitutional position to start with the current Constitution and modify from there than it is to begin with a new Constitution. But that would be false; beginning with the current Constitution as a base would bias the Convention towards a Constitution more strongly resembling the current Constitution.

There are plenty of people here who support retaining regions, in some form or another, including myself. Either way you're probably going to end up voting on the issue, since the people who oppose it will want them ripped out and the people who support them will want to retain them/put them back in.
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« Reply #238 on: April 24, 2009, 01:39:58 am »
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As for the vote; Aye, but I want some discussion on the possibility of adding consecutive term limits.
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« Reply #239 on: April 24, 2009, 11:35:30 am »
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     Aye
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Verily
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« Reply #240 on: April 24, 2009, 12:13:23 pm »
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Nay. Draft a version without Regions and then add them in later if the Convention supports them. Starting out with Regions in the plan biases it towards the introduction of Regions.

Wouldn't it be unbiased as it maintains the status quo? Rather than a blatant change that shows bias towards the no-region people?

No. It is always less biased to build up from minimalism than to "build down", so to speak, regardless of what the issue is under consideration.

You might say, for example, that it would be less biased towards any constitutional position to start with the current Constitution and modify from there than it is to begin with a new Constitution. But that would be false; beginning with the current Constitution as a base would bias the Convention towards a Constitution more strongly resembling the current Constitution.

There are plenty of people here who support retaining regions, in some form or another, including myself. Either way you're probably going to end up voting on the issue, since the people who oppose it will want them ripped out and the people who support them will want to retain them/put them back in.


That's not my point. Inserting them in the original proposal is biased in favor of retaining them. I know we're going to vote on it at some point.

Well, lets vote for this and if it passes then we can have a vote on taking the Regions out.

You're totally ignoring my point. It is always easier to insert a provision than to remove one. Therefore, adding extra, unnecessary provisions, like Regions, bias the proposal in favor of the introduction of Regions. It's a basic principle of drafting that you start simple. This proposal is not doing so, and I won't stand for it.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 12:16:56 pm by Verily »Logged
Purple State
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« Reply #241 on: April 26, 2009, 05:59:58 pm »
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Final Tally
Aye = 9
Nay = 1

Quorum: Achieved (barely, cmon guys)
Motion PASSES



If someone would like to write up an impeachment section that would be great.
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Devilman88
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« Reply #242 on: April 26, 2009, 06:39:11 pm »
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Article 1: The Congress of Atlasia

Section 1: Formation of the Senate
1. The Senate shall be composed of five Senators elected by a popular vote of the citizens of Atlasia, each with a term of six months.
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for Senate who has not attained two hundred or more posts. A Senator may not hold any other public office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also a President pro tempore, who shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the President and who shall manage the everyday business of the Senate.
4. The President of the Republic of Atlasia shall be the President of the Senate, but shall have no vote unless they be equally divided.

Section 2: Formation of the House
1. The House of Representatives, herein referred to as House, shall be made up of sixteen Representatives, each with a term of three months.
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for the House who has not attained one hundred or more posts. A Representative may not hold any other federal or executive office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The House shall elect a Speaker of the House who shall be responsible for chairing debate that occurs within the House and for managing every day business.

Section 3: Congressional Rules and Legislation
1. The separate chambers of Congress may establish their own rules of procedure, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, respectively, may expel a member of the same chamber.
2. Each chamber shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum in each chamber shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Congress, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote in each respective chamber. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the PPT, Speaker, and sponsors of the Bill or Resolution from each chamber for conference, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of a chamber. Upon resolution of any differences between the separate versions of legislation, the Bill or Resolution shall be returned to both chambers for approval. If passed by both chambers separately, the revised Bill or Resolution shall then be presented to the President of the Republic of Atlasia. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Congress, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if each chamber shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Congress by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless.

Section 4: Elections to Congress
1. Elections for the Senate shall be held on the 2nd Thursday in the months of January and July.
2. The House election shall be as the following:
    i. The House will be split into groups A, B, C, D, each having four Representatives in each group
   ii. Group A elections are held on the 1st Thursday of Jan, April, July and Oct
   iii. Group B elections are held on the 1st Thursday of Feb, May, Aug and Nov
   iiii. Group C elections are held on the last Thursday of Jan, April, July and Oct
   iiiii. Group D elections are held on the last Thursday of Feb, May, Aug and Nov
2. Elections shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later.
3. If a vacancy shall occur in the House or Senate then a special election shall be called to fill the remainder of the vacted term within one week of the vacancy occurring; Such special election shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on a Friday and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later. However, if a vacancy shall occur when there is a person due to assume that office within two weeks, then no special election shall be necessary
4. The Senate shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of Congressional elections and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to Congress shall be by public post.
5. Those elected in ordinary elections to Congress shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the Friday following their election. Those elected in special elections to the Senate or appointed to the House shall take office as soon as the result of their election or appointment has been formally declared.

Section 5: Powers of the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 5 here]

Section 6: Powers denied to the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 6 here]

Section 7: Powers denied to the Regions (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 7 here]



I would like for this to be replaced with the current Article I.
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« Reply #243 on: April 26, 2009, 07:16:22 pm »
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Article 1: The Congress of Atlasia

Section 1: Formation of the Senate
1. The Senate shall be composed of five Senators elected by a popular vote of the citizens of Atlasia, each with a term of six months.
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for Senate who has not attained two hundred or more posts. A Senator may not hold any other public office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also a President pro tempore, who shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the President and who shall manage the everyday business of the Senate.
4. The President of the Republic of Atlasia shall be the President of the Senate, but shall have no vote unless they be equally divided.

Section 2: Formation of the House
1. The House of Representatives, herein referred to as House, shall be made up of sixteen Representatives, each with a term of three months.
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for the House who has not attained one hundred or more posts. A Representative may not hold any other federal or executive office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The House shall elect a Speaker of the House who shall be responsible for chairing debate that occurs within the House and for managing every day business.

Section 3: Congressional Rules and Legislation
1. The separate chambers of Congress may establish their own rules of procedure, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, respectively, may expel a member of the same chamber.
2. Each chamber shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum in each chamber shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Congress, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote in each respective chamber. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the PPT, Speaker, and sponsors of the Bill or Resolution from each chamber for conference, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of a chamber. Upon resolution of any differences between the separate versions of legislation, the Bill or Resolution shall be returned to both chambers for approval. If passed by both chambers separately, the revised Bill or Resolution shall then be presented to the President of the Republic of Atlasia. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Congress, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if each chamber shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Congress by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless.

Section 4: Elections to Congress
1. Elections for the Senate shall be held on the 2nd Thursday in the months of January and July.
2. The House election shall be as the following:
    i. The House will be split into groups A, B, C, D, each having four Representatives in each group
   ii. Group A elections are held on the 1st Thursday of Jan, April, July and Oct
   iii. Group B elections are held on the 1st Thursday of Feb, May, Aug and Nov
   iiii. Group C elections are held on the last Thursday of Jan, April, July and Oct
   iiiii. Group D elections are held on the last Thursday of Feb, May, Aug and Nov
2. Elections shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later.
3. If a vacancy shall occur in the House or Senate then a special election shall be called to fill the remainder of the vacted term within one week of the vacancy occurring; Such special election shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on a Friday and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later. However, if a vacancy shall occur when there is a person due to assume that office within two weeks, then no special election shall be necessary
4. The Senate shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of Congressional elections and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to Congress shall be by public post.
5. Those elected in ordinary elections to Congress shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the Friday following their election. Those elected in special elections to the Senate or appointed to the House shall take office as soon as the result of their election or appointment has been formally declared.

Section 5: Powers of the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 5 here]

Section 6: Powers denied to the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 6 here]

Section 7: Powers denied to the Regions (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 7 here]



I would like for this to be replaced with the current Article I.

What?
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« Reply #244 on: April 26, 2009, 07:25:06 pm »
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Article 1: The Congress of Atlasia

Section 1: Formation of the Senate
1. The Senate shall be composed of five Senators elected by a popular vote of the citizens of Atlasia, each with a term of six months.
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for Senate who has not attained two hundred or more posts. A Senator may not hold any other public office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also a President pro tempore, who shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the President and who shall manage the everyday business of the Senate.
4. The President of the Republic of Atlasia shall be the President of the Senate, but shall have no vote unless they be equally divided.

Section 2: Formation of the House
1. The House of Representatives, herein referred to as House, shall be made up of sixteen Representatives, each with a term of three months.
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for the House who has not attained one hundred or more posts. A Representative may not hold any other federal or executive office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The House shall elect a Speaker of the House who shall be responsible for chairing debate that occurs within the House and for managing every day business.

Section 3: Congressional Rules and Legislation
1. The separate chambers of Congress may establish their own rules of procedure, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, respectively, may expel a member of the same chamber.
2. Each chamber shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum in each chamber shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Congress, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote in each respective chamber. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the PPT, Speaker, and sponsors of the Bill or Resolution from each chamber for conference, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of a chamber. Upon resolution of any differences between the separate versions of legislation, the Bill or Resolution shall be returned to both chambers for approval. If passed by both chambers separately, the revised Bill or Resolution shall then be presented to the President of the Republic of Atlasia. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Congress, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if each chamber shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Congress by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless.

Section 4: Elections to Congress
1. Elections for the Senate shall be held on the 2nd Thursday in the months of January and July.
2. The House election shall be as the following:
    i. The House will be split into groups A, B, C, D, each having four Representatives in each group
   ii. Group A elections are held on the 1st Thursday of Jan, April, July and Oct
   iii. Group B elections are held on the 1st Thursday of Feb, May, Aug and Nov
   iiii. Group C elections are held on the last Thursday of Jan, April, July and Oct
   iiiii. Group D elections are held on the last Thursday of Feb, May, Aug and Nov
2. Elections shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later.
3. If a vacancy shall occur in the House or Senate then a special election shall be called to fill the remainder of the vacted term within one week of the vacancy occurring; Such special election shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on a Friday and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later. However, if a vacancy shall occur when there is a person due to assume that office within two weeks, then no special election shall be necessary
4. The Senate shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of Congressional elections and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to Congress shall be by public post.
5. Those elected in ordinary elections to Congress shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the Friday following their election. Those elected in special elections to the Senate or appointed to the House shall take office as soon as the result of their election or appointment has been formally declared.

Section 5: Powers of the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 5 here]

Section 6: Powers denied to the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 6 here]

Section 7: Powers denied to the Regions (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 7 here]



I would like for this to be replaced with the current Article I.

What?

     I second that reaction. Such a move would make this neither parliamentary nor bicameral.
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« Reply #245 on: April 26, 2009, 08:55:39 pm »
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I think all he did was change the way elections work for the House...
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« Reply #246 on: April 26, 2009, 11:07:44 pm »
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I think all he did was change the way elections work for the House...

     Oh. I'm slightly confused now.
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« Reply #247 on: April 26, 2009, 11:26:34 pm »
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I think all he did was change the way elections work for the House...

     Oh. I'm slightly confused now.

Yea I just split the House into four groups, A, B, C and D.  I know some people wanted it to have no regions, so I made this one for the sole purpose of no regions.
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« Reply #248 on: April 26, 2009, 11:35:49 pm »
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I mean, I guess I sort of see the reasoning to staggering the elections if you're going to do away with regions, but why not just keep regions and allow dual office holding? There's no harm in that.
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« Reply #249 on: April 26, 2009, 11:40:29 pm »
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I mean, I guess I sort of see the reasoning to staggering the elections if you're going to do away with regions, but why not just keep regions and allow dual office holding? There's no harm in that.

That was my plan, for House members. In the Article that passed it states, "No Person shall be eligible to run for the House who has not attained one hundred or more posts. A Representative may not hold any other federal or executive office in Atlasia for the duration of their term." So any house member could hold an office that is federal or like a governor, but they could be Assembly members.

I only came up with the other plan because some wanted to take the region out of the Article that passed.
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