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Author Topic: Parliamentary Bicameralism (Discussion Open)  (Read 44792 times)
Purple State
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« Reply #275 on: April 27, 2009, 10:14:57 pm »
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We would have to make sure to part the instructions part in big, bold letters. I wouldn't want butterfly ballot complaints. But that is a very interesting proposal. I could live with that. Should we draft a new version of Article I using that method and no regionally elected seats?
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« Reply #276 on: April 27, 2009, 10:21:08 pm »
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We would have to make sure to part the instructions part in big, bold letters. I wouldn't want butterfly ballot complaints. But that is a very interesting proposal. I could live with that. Should we draft a new version of Article I using that method and no regionally elected seats?

Lets see what everyone else says first. Also if you don't mind tomorrow I would like to write up another way we could elect them by parties. We can see which one people like better and go from there. If you don't mind of course.
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« Reply #277 on: April 27, 2009, 10:37:47 pm »
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We would have to make sure to part the instructions part in big, bold letters. I wouldn't want butterfly ballot complaints. But that is a very interesting proposal. I could live with that. Should we draft a new version of Article I using that method and no regionally elected seats?

Lets see what everyone else says first. Also if you don't mind tomorrow I would like to write up another way we could elect them by parties. We can see which one people like better and go from there. If you don't mind of course.

I simply asked that something be written up so we could view it in writing. I have no problem with anyone presenting anything. I won't be bringing a vote until we have weighed the options. Plus, I just run the voting and direct discussion. You're a delegate so feel free to present whatever you want whenever you want to.
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« Reply #278 on: April 27, 2009, 11:58:52 pm »
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I truly don't like the idea of voting on the basis of just checking a box and supporting that Party. It seems to me that it would make elections very boring and would make the party system much more stale and skewed in favor of parties that can just recruit a lot of people, instead of putting forward good candidates. Let me try to explain, the way we have it now, we vote for individual candidates, and because of this there are often swing voters from certain parties shifting over into others, some candidates doing poorly because of their quality, and parties rise and fall on the basis of the candidates they have.

It seems to me that if you change the system to something that allows just checking a party box, you could bypass that altogether. Elections essentially become a race for certain parties to get out their vote, and it's not an entirely irrational thing to suggest that most people would favor their party over others, for obvious reasons. Elections could quite easily just fall down the party line each and every time. (I realize this happens often now, but people can still split there vote between individual candidates, instead of having their support stuck to undetermined candidates of a certain party.)

Just voting for a party is too vague, too. Certain parties like the DA can differ wildly from center right, to center left, and the JCP has some economic conservatives as well as strong economic leftists. If we base it off a strictly "vote for party, party picks their people to fill the positions" system, no one is going to know who the hell they're voting for.

I like our current system of voting for individual candidates, and I don't like the idea of making larger parties destroy other parties simply by a get out the vote campaign, instead of individuals campaigning on their own merits to get elected. I realize under this system there would be a lot of people to elect, but I don't like the idea of just checking a party box. If people want to vote for a party, they can do so anyway.

But if we're going to change the voting system, let's at least just pick one way of voting, and not make it even more confusing to others. There's no need for 2+ voting methods.
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« Reply #279 on: April 29, 2009, 08:05:19 am »
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But nobody is forced to vote for a party under the system proposed by Smid, you still have the clear choice.

I don't think it's too much to ask of voters that they read the instructions provided to them on how to vote.
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« Reply #280 on: April 29, 2009, 08:47:51 am »
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I just realized, as the current Article I stands, it really doesn't seem very parliamentary at all. I am going to, later in the day, put up two proposals to edit it: one that makes it less parliamentary (Dan's idea revised) and one to return it back to parliamentary (adding clauses about dissolution, etc.).

I will bring those up for a vote at some point today or tomorrow as a motion between the two or NOTA and see what we end up with.
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« Reply #281 on: April 29, 2009, 08:55:07 am »
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I'm sorry, I'll do better next time.
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« Reply #282 on: May 02, 2009, 10:43:28 pm »
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Here is the proposal making Article I more parliamentarian:

Article 1: The Congress of Atlasia

Section 1: Formation of the Senate
1. The Senate shall be composed of five Senators, each with a term of six months. All Senators shall be elected by national public post.
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for Senate who has not attained two hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent. A Senator may not hold any other public office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The President of the Republic of Atlasia shall be the President of the Senate, but shall have no vote unless they be equally divided.

Section 2: Formation of the House
1. The House of Representatives, herein referred to as House, shall be made up of fifteen Representatives, each with a term of two months. All Representatives shall be elected by national public post.
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for the House who has not attained one hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent. A Representative may not hold any other federal or executive office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.

Section 3: Congressional Rules and Legislation
1. The separate chambers of Congress may establish their own rules of procedure, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, respectively, may expel a member of the same chamber.
2. Each chamber shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum in each chamber shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. A joint session of Congress shall be convened for the appointment of a Speaker of Congress at the beginning of each session of Congress, or upon the resignation or removal of the current Speaker, from among the current members of Congress. The Speaker shall be elected by a simple majority of the joint session and shall serve the dual role of President of the Senate in the absence of the President, who shall manage the everyday business of the Senate, and Speaker of the House, who shall be responsible for chairing debate that occurs within the House and for managing every day business.
4. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Congress, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote in each respective chamber. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the PPT, Speaker, and sponsors of the Bill or Resolution from each chamber for conference, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of a chamber. Upon resolution of any differences between the separate versions of legislation, the Bill or Resolution shall be returned to both chambers for approval. If passed by both chambers separately, the revised Bill or Resolution shall then be presented to the President of the Republic of Atlasia. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Congress, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if each chamber shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Congress by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless.

Section 4: Elections to Congress
1. Each term of the Senate shall last no longer than six months from the date that members are eligible to be sworn into office; Each term of the House shall last no longer than two months from the date that members are eligible to be sworn into office.
2. Elections for each chamber shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on the second Friday following the dissolution of said chamber and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later.
3. If a vacancy shall occur in the House, the Chair of that Representative's Party shall appoint a person to fill the remainder of that term. If the Representative is registered as an independent, he shall be given the power to appoint his successor.
4. If a vacancy shall occur in the Senate, then a special election shall be called to fill the remainder of the vacated term within one week of the vacancy occurring; Such special election shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on a Friday and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later. However, if a vacancy shall occur when there is a person due to assume that office within two weeks, then no special election shall be necessary.
5. The Senate shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of Congressional elections and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to Congress shall be by public post.
6. Those elected in ordinary elections to Congress shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the Friday following their election. Those elected in special elections to the Senate or appointed to the House shall take office as soon as the result of their election or appointment has been formally declared.

Section 5: Dissolution of Congress
1. The power to dissolve Congress shall be divided as follows:
     a. The Speaker of Congress shall have the power to dissolve both chambers of Congress simultaneously by his recommendation through public post. The Speaker shall be allowed to exercise this power once every six months.
     b. The President of Atlasia shall have the power to dissolve any one chamber of Congress by his recommendation through public post. The President shall be allowed to exercise this power once every three months.
     c. The Congress of Atlasia shall have the power to dissolve both chambers of Congress by loss of a confidence motion on the Speaker. Such a motion shall automatically be brought to a vote upon recommendation, through public post, by five members of Congress. The motion shall require a vote by each chamber of Congress, respectively, to be carried or lost. In the event of a tie the motion shall be considered lost and Congress shall be dissolved. Confidence motions may be brought by the Congress once every two months.
     d. Upon the fulfillment of a chamber's respective term in office, said chamber shall be instantly considered dissolved.

Section 6: Powers of the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 5 here]

Section 7: Powers denied to the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 6 here]

Section 8: Powers denied to the Regions (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 7 here]
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« Reply #283 on: May 02, 2009, 11:10:21 pm »
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This is the less parliamentary version:

Article 1: The Congress of Atlasia

Section 1: Formation of the Senate
1. 1. The Senate shall be composed of five Senators, each with a term of six months. All Senators shall be elected national by popular vote.
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for Senate who has not attained two hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent. A Senator may not hold any other public office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also a President pro tempore, who shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the President and who shall manage the everyday business of the Senate.
4. The President of the Republic of Atlasia shall be the President of the Senate, but shall have no vote unless they be equally divided.

Section 2: Formation of the House
1. The House of Representatives, herein referred to as House, shall be made up of fifteen Representatives, each with a term of two months. All Representatives shall be elected by national party vote.
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for the House who has not attained one hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent. A Representative may not hold any other federal or executive office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The House shall elect a Speaker of the House who shall be responsible for chairing debate that occurs within the House and for managing every day business.

Section 3: Congressional Rules and Legislation
1. The separate chambers of Congress may establish their own rules of procedure, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, respectively, may expel a member of the same chamber.
2. Each chamber shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum in each chamber shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Congress, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote in each respective chamber. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the PPT, Speaker, and sponsors of the Bill or Resolution from each chamber for conference, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of a chamber. Upon resolution of any differences between the separate versions of legislation, the Bill or Resolution shall be returned to both chambers for approval. If passed by both chambers separately, the revised Bill or Resolution shall then be presented to the President of the Republic of Atlasia. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Congress, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if each chamber shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Congress by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless.

Section 4: Elections to the Senate
1. Elections for the Senate shall be held in the months of January and July of each year.
2. Elections for each chamber shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on the third Friday of the month and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later.
3. If a vacancy shall occur in the Senate, then a special election shall be called to fill the remainder of the vacated term within one week of the vacancy occurring; Such special election shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on the second Friday following the vacancy and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later. However, if a vacancy shall occur when there is a person due to assume that office within two weeks, then no special election shall be necessary.
5. The Senate shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of elections to the Senate and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to the Senate shall be by public post.
6. Those elected in ordinary elections to the Senate shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the Friday following their election. Those elected in special elections to the Senate shall take office as soon as the result of their election or appointment has been formally declared.


Section 5: Elections to the House of Representatives
1. Elections for the House shall be held on every odd numbered month of the year.
2. Elections shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on the second Friday of a given month and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later.
3. On the second Friday before elections, each party shall hold an internal, public election to determine a preferential list of members to be seated in the House based on the proportion of votes received by each party and the ordered preference of members.
4. The ballot for House elections shall consist of those parties officially recognized in Atlasia, as well as a list of independent candidates. Upon the conclusion of the election, the percentage of the vote received by each party and independent candidate shall be determined and reported by the Commissioner of Elections in public post. Seats shall be apportioned by the following formula: Total percentage of votes received divided by [100 divided by the total number of offices in the election]. Resulting numbers that are not integers shall be rounded to the nearest integer. If evenly split, the party with the greatest proportion of votes between those split shall receive the seat.
5. If a vacancy shall occur in the House, the Chair of that Representative's Party shall appoint a person to fill the remainder of that term. If the Representative is registered as an independent, he shall be given the power to appoint his successor.
6. The House shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of elections to the House and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to the House shall be by public post.
7. Those elected in ordinary elections to the House shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the Friday following their election. Those appointed to vacancies in the House shall take office as soon as their appointment has been formally declared.
8. Each party shall have necessary power to determine regulations, procedure, and the form of internal elections. A party shall be considered a candidate for House elections upon fulfillment of all requirements outlined by this Constitution and the appropriate statute.

Section 6: Powers of the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 5 here]

Section 7: Powers denied to the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 6 here]

Section 8: Powers denied to the Regions (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 7 here]
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« Reply #284 on: May 02, 2009, 11:12:09 pm »
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I will provide one day of discussion and then I will bring these two to a vote of Option 1, Option 2, or NOTA.
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« Reply #285 on: May 02, 2009, 11:13:07 pm »
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I like the first one quite a bit, but I just have a one major issue as of now. I find the six months to be a bit steep for something like this, even if the Senate is supposed to be more powerful and prestigious, a half-year term just seems too long.

Otherwise this article is quite good, and I do hope we end up with three regions so we can have regional & at-large elections instead of purely regional ones.

As for the second, I'm not a fan of the voting system and the lack of any regional impact on elections whatsoever, so, opposed.
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« Reply #286 on: May 03, 2009, 07:15:27 am »
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I support the parliamentary Option one, as this is Parliamentary Bicameralism.

However, I still want something about NCMs for the Prime Minister/government somewhere in the Constitution.
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« Reply #287 on: May 03, 2009, 09:53:49 am »
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I like the first one quite a bit, but I just have a one major issue as of now. I find the six months to be a bit steep for something like this, even if the Senate is supposed to be more powerful and prestigious, a half-year term just seems too long.

Otherwise this article is quite good, and I do hope we end up with three regions so we can have regional & at-large elections instead of purely regional ones.

As for the second, I'm not a fan of the voting system and the lack of any regional impact on elections whatsoever, so, opposed.

I simply took regions out of both (I believe I did) in order to put them both on equal footing. And the Senate can always be dissolved if it stops doing its job. I think it is important that there be a real incentive for the position.

I support the parliamentary Option one, as this is Parliamentary Bicameralism.

However, I still want something about NCMs for the Prime Minister/government somewhere in the Constitution.

There is a section on dissolution of the parliament and it includes a section on NCMs.
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« Reply #288 on: May 03, 2009, 10:00:33 am »
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I support the parliamentary Option one, as this is Parliamentary Bicameralism.

However, I still want something about NCMs for the Prime Minister/government somewhere in the Constitution.

There is a section on dissolution of the parliament and it includes a section on NCMs.

Maybe I misread, but that talks about NCMs on the Speaker, and not the Prime Minister or Government.
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« Reply #289 on: May 03, 2009, 10:54:58 am »
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I support the parliamentary Option one, as this is Parliamentary Bicameralism.

However, I still want something about NCMs for the Prime Minister/government somewhere in the Constitution.

There is a section on dissolution of the parliament and it includes a section on NCMs.

Maybe I misread, but that talks about NCMs on the Speaker, and not the Prime Minister or Government.

The Speaker is the PM (just different name) and it states that Congress must dissolve itself with the NCM, thereby removing the Speaker.
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« Reply #290 on: May 03, 2009, 10:59:14 am »
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I support the parliamentary Option one, as this is Parliamentary Bicameralism.

However, I still want something about NCMs for the Prime Minister/government somewhere in the Constitution.

There is a section on dissolution of the parliament and it includes a section on NCMs.

Maybe I misread, but that talks about NCMs on the Speaker, and not the Prime Minister or Government.

The Speaker is the PM (just different name) and it states that Congress must dissolve itself with the NCM, thereby removing the Speaker.

Where does that leave my proposed Article 2 on the Prime Minister, then?

I much rather like the name PM if we go parliamentary, instead of "Speaker".
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« Reply #291 on: May 03, 2009, 11:10:50 am »
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Agreed, why arbitrarily change the name, anyway?
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« Reply #292 on: May 03, 2009, 02:18:01 pm »
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I support the parliamentary Option one, as this is Parliamentary Bicameralism.

However, I still want something about NCMs for the Prime Minister/government somewhere in the Constitution.

There is a section on dissolution of the parliament and it includes a section on NCMs.

Maybe I misread, but that talks about NCMs on the Speaker, and not the Prime Minister or Government.

The Speaker is the PM (just different name) and it states that Congress must dissolve itself with the NCM, thereby removing the Speaker.

Where does that leave my proposed Article 2 on the Prime Minister, then?

I much rather like the name PM if we go parliamentary, instead of "Speaker".

Agreed, why arbitrarily change the name, anyway?

Why do we need conventional titles for it to qualify as the same idea? Looking at the recent thread by afleitch in the Government Board, people don't seem to be pushing hard for a European model. At least if that is what we are moving towards we can keep some remnants of American language. It really has no substantive effect on the Constitution whether we call the guy the Speaker or PM.
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« Reply #293 on: May 03, 2009, 02:37:25 pm »
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Parliamentarianism is not a "European" model ROFL.
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« Reply #294 on: May 03, 2009, 02:38:05 pm »
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"Prime Minister" just seems more appropriate for a parliamentary model, and people have a better understanding of what a PM is and does rather than a "Speaker." Which could mean a great deal of things. I think it makes sense and would be easier for people to "get" the system if we just called the position by the name literally anyone else would call it.
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« Reply #295 on: May 03, 2009, 02:42:05 pm »
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"Prime Minister" just seems more appropriate for a parliamentary model, and people have a better understanding of what a PM is and does rather than a "Speaker." Which could mean a great deal of things. I think it makes sense and would be easier for people to "get" the system if we just called the position by the name literally anyone else would call it.

Voila.
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« Reply #296 on: May 03, 2009, 04:02:27 pm »
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Yes, especially because many parliaments have both a Prime Minister and a speaker, who perform very different roles.
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« Reply #297 on: May 03, 2009, 04:17:00 pm »
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I will clarify it when I bring it to a vote to include the powers of both in one (essentially stating he is called the PM, but may be referred to as the Speaker or PM). That way it is clear that there is no alternative Speaker, which could be a potential secondary problem.

Sounds good?
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« Reply #298 on: May 03, 2009, 04:24:36 pm »
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By the way, I am going to propose a fun new idea for the Judiciary when we get to that. I think this proposal gives us a nice way to change that whole system up. I will be bringing a motion to a vote in a few hours on the above proposals.
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« Reply #299 on: May 03, 2009, 05:02:01 pm »
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I will clarify it when I bring it to a vote to include the powers of both in one (essentially stating he is called the PM, but may be referred to as the Speaker or PM). That way it is clear that there is no alternative Speaker, which could be a potential secondary problem.

Sounds good?

That sounds good to me. Smiley
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