Opinion of Lyndon Johnson

[dead0man]

You have to also consider how the conflicts turned out, we left Vietnam with our tail between our legs.  Iraq hasn't gone as swimmingly as it should have or we would have liked for it to have gone, but the end result (at least up until 2009) is looking much better than what happened to Southeast Asia after we pulled out.

Iraq and Vietnam are not equal travesties.

[??????????]

You have to also consider how the conflicts turned out, we left Vietnam with our tail between our legs.  Iraq hasn't gone as swimmingly as it should have or we would have liked for it to have gone, but the end result (at least up until 2009) is looking much better than what happened to Southeast Asia after we pulled out.

Iraq and Vietnam are not equal travesties.

That's because we had a President who was willing to continue to press forward with the fight in the face of unfaltering criticism and personal attacks. Vietnam was always fought halfhearted, with no real strategy other then to keep a war going. LBJs fault was not fighting the war to win but to pass the buck on to the next lucky sap to get elected. Nixon really started fighting the war after his election but by that point the tide of popularity was against him and the wave of peaceniks and Congress was against him all the way. If the war had been fought like Nixon did from 64 onwards the US would have won or at least stabilized the situation.

[minionofmidas]

He botched Vietnam of course. But then again as one of my compatriots said ''Little men make little mistakes. Big men make big mistakes''.

So was Iraq a big mistake or little mistake?

An idiotic one.

Which was a bigger mistake, Vietnam or Iraq?

Vietnam was the bigger mistake. Iraq was the dumber mistake.

Which is in line with the logic of the quote, of course, but is nonetheless just plain objectively true.

[dead0man]

How was Iraq dumber than Vietnam?  We had no great reasons to go to either place.  One left us embarrassed and defeated, the other left us slightly less embarrassed and not defeated.  (and one killed 6 million people while the other...ahem, only killed 1 million.

I know we've all been singing together about how horrible a mistake Iraq was for the past 5 years, but it's minor compared to the cluster  that was getting involved in Vietnam.  I suspect that ones love for LBJ and hatred of Bush blinds them to that truth.

[Landslide Lyndon]

How was Iraq dumber than Vietnam? 

Because Bush should have learned from LBJ's mistake.

[dead0man]

Nobody for LBJ to have learned from I guess.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Nobody for LBJ to have learned from I guess.

Obviously, since this was the first time the US lost a war.

[dead0man]

Obviously US Presidents can only learn from the mistakes of past US Presidents.

[War on Want]

I vote net FF, I really hate some of the more fascist things he did as president but it is to be expected. Besides Civil Rights, Medicare, the War On Poverty and a whole list of other accomplishments make up for that.

Still I am not really a fan of him, I just prefer him over Reagan and the ilk like him.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Obviously US Presidents can only learn from the mistakes of past US Presidents.

If they are smart enough.

[dead0man]

Each of your posts just confuses me more and more.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Each of your posts just confuses me more and more.

What's so confusing?

G. H. W. Bush learned from Johnson's mistake and stayed out of Iraq. His son apparently wasn't that smart.

[dead0man]

You think that's what kept Daddy Bush out of Iraq?  Odd.

Anyway, you start out by saying Bush should have known better because of how stupid LBJ was.  I question why you don't fault LBJ for not learning that lesson from somebody else in history.  You counter that Presidents can only learn from mistakes of past Presidents (but only if they are smart enough), as if mistakes by other people couldn't be learned from.

I know it's easy to make up excuses for our own, but you guys have raised this to an art form with LBJ.

[Landslide Lyndon]

You think that's what kept Daddy Bush out of Iraq?  Odd.

Anyway, you start out by saying Bush should have known better because of how stupid LBJ was.  I question why you don't fault LBJ for not learning that lesson from somebody else in history.  You counter that Presidents can only learn from mistakes of past Presidents (but only if they are smart enough), as if mistakes by other people couldn't be learned from.

I know it's easy to make up excuses for our own, but you guys have raised this to an art form with LBJ.

So saying that LBJ was stupid is a defense of him?
What exactly would be an indictment? That God told him to escalate the war, like W. said about Iraq?

And if you can enlighten us about Poppy Bush's motives for not invading Iraq and toppling Saddam you are more than welcome. Because silly me was under the impression that he knew that such a course of action would create an unmanageable mess, not unlike the one in Vietnam.

[dead0man]

So saying that LBJ was stupid is a defense of him?

Wait, you haven't been defending him.  See, I told you I was confused.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Like what happened when we actually did invade Iraq?  Errr wait, no, Iraq never did turn into Vietnam....and every second W. hater trying to equate the two didn't make it any more true.  I was under the impression that the left had finally wised up to this, but apparently everyone hasn't gotten the memo yet.

Bush didn't topple Saddam in 1991 because he assumed (incorrectly) the Iraqis would do it for him, it had nothing to do with Vietnam.  Nobody, outside of the ignorant with an agenda, has ever thought Iraq could turn into something as horrible as Vietnam.  They didn't go into Iraq 1991 because they feared it would turn into what it turned into when Bush II went in in 2003.  cite

You must be logged in to read this quote.

..and before you or somebody else jumps on that and says "that's exactly what Vietnam was!" I ask you to again recall the death totals and the way we left.

[Landslide Lyndon]

So saying that LBJ was stupid is a defense of him?

Wait, you haven't been defending him.  See, I told you I was confused

Not my fault if you're slow. From my first post I said that Vietnam was the biggest stain on his legacy and the he really screwed up the war.

Bush didn't topple Saddam in 1991 because he assumed (incorrectly) the Iraqis would do it for him, it had nothing to do with Vietnam. 

First time I hear that. And if he wanted the Iraqis to topple Saddam he would have assisted them at least covertly. He did nothing like that.
The truth is, he didn't care about Saddam, as long as he was ousted from Kuwait. And perhaps he considered him a useful check to the growing influence of Iran. So your theory doesn't make much sense.

..and before you or somebody else jumps on that and says "that's exactly what Vietnam was!" I ask you to again recall the death totals and the way we left.

Your argument is disingenuous. As I mentioned the Indochina victims spanned over three decades and four countries.
And of course you conveniently forget that warfare has changed drastically since then. We are talking about an ultra-modern professional army now, not some kids drafted out of their high schools and armed with a rifle. To expect casualties like the ones in Vietnam shows ignorance. 

[dead0man]

Not my fault if you're slow. From my first post I said that Vietnam was the biggest stain on his legacy and the he really screwed up the war.

.and you've since tried to say that Vietnam and Iraq were somehow equal (they aren't) and that's what started our little conversation here.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

This ain't "my" theory Batman.  From wikiQuote

[??????????]

Nobody for LBJ to have learned from I guess.

Obviously, since this was the first time the US lost a war.

Tactically Vietnam was a stunning success.

[dead0man]

Excellent point.  The military didn't lose Vietnam, America did.  And America was right, it was a pointless bloody war.  America was wrong to turn their back on the troops though.  That is a lesson America seems to have learned.  We need to keep letting our govt know we've learned this lesson because the govt has, in a few cases, already turned their back on the troops.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Excellent point.  The military didn't lose Vietnam, America did.  And America was right, it was a pointless bloody war.  America was wrong to turn their back on the troops though.  That is a lesson America seems to have learned.  We need to keep letting our govt know we've learned this lesson because the govt has, in a few cases, already turned their back on the troops.

Haven't you had enough of the ''Dolschtoss'' theory the last 40 years?

And by the way, from the wiki article you posted it seems to me that the whole ''Iraqis will topple Saddam for us'' was more wishful thinking than anything else.

[opebo]

Tactically Vietnam was a stunning success.

Haha, it is pathetic to be proud of a 'tactical success' against a few poors in pajamas, considering the resources the fascist invader had on its side.  How on earth could the scenario not be a 'tactical success' for the overwhelming power in a situation like that?

[Beet]

Tactically Vietnam was a stunning success.

Haha, it is pathetic to be proud of a 'tactical success' against a few poors in pajamas, considering the resources the fascist invader had on its side.  How on earth could the scenario not be a 'tactical success' for the overwhelming power in a situation like that?

North Vietnam had the tacit backing of the People's Republic of China. The Chinese had made it clear that they would not tolerate a US puppet state at their borders when they invaded North Korea in 1950. And since the Chinese had tested nukes in 1964, the MacArthur solution was no longer a possibility, even if military leaders had been inclined in that direction (which they wisely weren't). Even though they never fired a shot (besides providing the NVA with some anti aircraft support) their presence and the history of their intervention in Korea effectively protected the so called poors in pajamas from US attack. Also, by 1972 they were the conduit for transfers of large numbers of Soviet tanks into the NVA, and the NVA learned how to use them in 1975 to win the war.

[RosettaStoned]

HP. Vietnam far outweighs anything positive he did.

[minionofmidas]

How was Iraq dumber than Vietnam? 

Because of the very different circumstances of the decision-taking?
With hindsight, Vietnam was much more... wrong. That's what we agreed on when we said it was the bigger mistake.

[Hash]

HP. Vietnam far outweighs anything positive he did.

Indeed, as much as I like some of his domestic reforms.