I'm scared

[War on Want]

Rationing and waiting for months to go to the doctor sounds good to you?

Rationing and waiting for some operations makes perfect sense to me. I am not going to explain why though read this and you will figure out why I support it:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service_(England)
I can't be expected to defend my opinion with you knowing next to nothing about single-payer healthcare.

I guess this is where we differ.

"In the NHS, which aims to give a broad coverage of care to all without charging, health care is rationed on the grounds of clinical need, meaning that emergency cases (e.g. heart attacks) get instant access where those with less urgent needs (e.g. cataract surgery) are given lower priority and so wait longer."

I don't feel that the person who needs cataract surgery should have to wait to get surgery. You think they should.

So that is your only problem with single-payer healthcare? It makes perfect sense to me, in order for the system to work you have to make some sacrifices.

Not my only problem. I also don't know how we are going to pay for it when we are already so far in debt as a country.

Higher taxes, cutting military spending,

Is that really possible now? We're in the middle of two wars and will be for the next 2 years at the minimum. And also higher taxes? Sorry, but that won't fly with the American people.

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are funded seperatley from Defense spending for the most part and we will be about of Iraq very shortly. We could easily cut Defense spending by 25% without losing any real security or military strength by bringing home soldiers from lots of pointless areas where they are placed and cutting back on the Navy. Higher taxes will fly with the American people if they are on the rich.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Have you checked to see what we're currently spending on health care?

Here's just Medicare and Medicaid

2009: $684 billion
projected 2019: $1.34 trillion
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy10/pdf/fy10-newera.pdf

Bush's Medicare boondoggle is wasting a ton of taxpayer money. Single payer would be far more efficient.

[Bono]

What do you mean, Verily?

This is not something to be scared of, even if you dislike it politically. In fact, saying that you are scared of it only makes you look absurd and wild-eyed.

Well, I do not believe that it is good for the country, and will hand much more power to the government.  That is, in my opinion, something to be scared of.

To which 60 million Britons would be unable to contain their laughter.

Britain doesn't have single payer, so I don't see what they would be laughing about.

[Bono]

Anyway, to single payer advocates, why do you feel single payer is better than the social insurance system existing in Austria and Switzerland (among others) that routinely gets great health care ratings?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Rationing and waiting for months to go to the doctor sounds good to you?

No one has to wait months to see a doctor. If you ring in the morning you can generally get an appointment later that day (I did that on Thursday, as it happens). The system, and I can say this from repeated personal experience, generally works very well.

[Franzl]

Republican propaganda has really worked wonders among many people.....it's frightening, though, to see that it even works for some of our forum members, who are, on average, more intelligent than the average person.

[Bono]

Rationing and waiting for months to go to the doctor sounds good to you?

No one has to wait months to see a doctor. If you ring in the morning you can generally get an appointment later that day (I did that on Thursday, as it happens). The system, and I can say this from repeated personal experience, generally works very well.

He means for a specialist Al. Don't tell me you can get a cancer surgery set for the next week after diagnosis, because we both know that isn't true.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Rationing and waiting for months to go to the doctor sounds good to you?

No one has to wait months to see a doctor. If you ring in the morning you can generally get an appointment later that day (I did that on Thursday, as it happens). The system, and I can say this from repeated personal experience, generally works very well.

He means for a specialist Al. Don't tell me you can get a cancer surgery set for the next week after diagnosis, because we both know that isn't true.

You mean that in the US you can have cancer surgery immediately after being diagnosed?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

He means for a specialist Al.

Did he? Normally when people say "the doctor" that's not what they mean. Anyway, back when I first had my main condition it certainly didn't take months before I saw a specialist.

Am sure that random horror stories can be dug up, of course.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What do you mean, Verily?

This is not something to be scared of, even if you dislike it politically. In fact, saying that you are scared of it only makes you look absurd and wild-eyed.

Well, I do not believe that it is good for the country, and will hand much more power to the government.  That is, in my opinion, something to be scared of.

Your government can execute people legally.

(cheap, but necessary).

[opebo]

Ronnie, you should be scared of becoming uninsured and being unable to get any health care at all.  This is a very likely result at some point in your life under the current system, unless you are a rich.

Please remember, your fear of 'socialism' is entirely an implant placed there by the system to keep you in line, worker.

[Bono]

Rationing and waiting for months to go to the doctor sounds good to you?

No one has to wait months to see a doctor. If you ring in the morning you can generally get an appointment later that day (I did that on Thursday, as it happens). The system, and I can say this from repeated personal experience, generally works very well.

He means for a specialist Al. Don't tell me you can get a cancer surgery set for the next week after diagnosis, because we both know that isn't true.

You mean that in the US you can have cancer surgery immediately after being diagnosed?

That depends on how you define immediately, but you certainly don't have to wait more than a month.

Hell, here in Portugal people can get it that fast too in the private sector.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Rationing and waiting for months to go to the doctor sounds good to you?

No one has to wait months to see a doctor. If you ring in the morning you can generally get an appointment later that day (I did that on Thursday, as it happens). The system, and I can say this from repeated personal experience, generally works very well.

He means for a specialist Al. Don't tell me you can get a cancer surgery set for the next week after diagnosis, because we both know that isn't true.

You mean that in the US you can have cancer surgery immediately after being diagnosed?

That depends on how you define immediately, but you certainly don't have to wait more than a month.

Hell, here in Portugal people can get it that fast too in the private sector.

I had benign tumor surgery a month after I was diagnosed here in Greece with our public health care system. So your argument isn't serious.

If a patient is diagnosed with a life-threatening condition he will be operated as soon as possible regardless of the system.

[Lunar]

It usually takes me a few weeks to see my specialist doctors in the US, but I didn't shop around beforehand.  As a side note, I wonder how much the act of simply going to whom your normal doctors recommends impacts the free market.

[Sbane]

Many of the problems like rationing and wait time already exists in the American health system, unless you can just throw around tens of thousands of dollars like toilet paper. American insurance companies have failed us and having the government take over is not only not scary, it is preferable. It will also help companies like GM compete on the global market on an even keel.

[Bono]

Many of the problems like rationing and wait time already exists in the American health system, unless you can just throw around tens of thousands of dollars like toilet paper. American insurance companies have failed us and having the government take over is not only not scary, it is preferable. It will also help companies like GM compete on the global market on an even keel.

Bullsh**t. Health insurance is part of the compensation package. If workers didn't receive worker provided health insurance, they would be receiving that money in some other way.

[Sbane]

Many of the problems like rationing and wait time already exists in the American health system, unless you can just throw around tens of thousands of dollars like toilet paper. American insurance companies have failed us and having the government take over is not only not scary, it is preferable. It will also help companies like GM compete on the global market on an even keel.

Bullsh**t. Health insurance is part of the compensation package. If workers didn't receive worker provided health insurance, they would be receiving that money in some other way.

Ugh. You obviously have no clue how the system works. Health care costs go up each year. So a commitment GM made on a worker's contract back in the 80's or 90's is much more costly today than it was back then. I want to unburden all companies from having to provide health insurance.  They should be able to buy insurance on their own accord if they feel like it, but I would guess the vast majority of people would opt for the government health care. Health care in America is superior for only 1% of the population while the rest of us have a system no better than any other western country and the uninsured are just royally f'ed.

[Citizen James]

As opposed to corporate run bureaucratic health care - which takes all the inefficiency feared of 'socialized health care', and adds on more costs for a profit margin and lack of standards.

Healthcare in America today is basically don't get sick if you aren't rich (and don't expect to stay rich if you are and get sick)

[Lunar]

A more serious question:  Has anyone in this forum ever tried to mail a frickin' package during busy hours?  What kind of service did you receive?  Was is consistent?

[Lief 🗽]

A more serious question:  Has anyone in this forum ever tried to mail a frickin' package during busy hours?  What kind of service did you receive?  Was is consistent?

Actually, my parents do a lot of buying/selling on eBay, and they only use USPS, never any of the private companies like UPS or FedEx and they've always been satisfied and have had no problems.

BUT THE GOVERNMENT IS ALWAYS INEFFICIENT RAAAAR

[Lunar]

A more serious question:  Has anyone in this forum ever tried to mail a frickin' package during busy hours?  What kind of service did you receive?  Was is consistent?

Actually, my parents do a lot of buying/selling on eBay, and they only use USPS, never any of the private companies like UPS or FedEx and they've always been satisfied and have had no problems.

BUT THE GOVERNMENT IS ALWAYS INEFFICIENT RAAAAR

RAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWR that was fun

I don't know, I go to a public school and the waste and inefficiency and horrible workers is insane.  I've only once dealt with my insurance, but it's far easier than trying to deal with some of these ridiculous, slovenly, bureaucrats I've had to deal with, yaddamean?  Mailing a package here or in San Francisco, the two places I've tried it, past 4 pm is rather engaging of a process as well.

I'm not necessarily opposed to health care being transformed into a government-secured individual right as demonstrated by other countries, but I think there are serious questions left unanswered about what this is going to look like.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

With those new automated machines mailing a package is super-easy. You can even do it 24 hours now.

[Lunar]

With those new automated machines mailing a package is super-easy. You can even do it 24 hours now.

TANGENT ALERT

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

It's a good counter-point.

Besides, how many Atlasians here have graduated from a public school? They aren't as awful or inefficient as Libertarians and Gully Foyle love to claim.

[Lief 🗽]

I go to a private school, and the waste and inefficiency and horrible workers is also insane. And again, mailing a package with UPS or FedEx or DHL is no more efficient that USPS and usually more expensive and takes longer to be delivered.