Opinion of the Ottoman Empire

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Pure evil. One of the greatest abominations that has ever existed. The day it was abolished and the evil was cleansed from the Earth is a day worthy of celebration. Option 5.

[dead0man]

They kept the Arabs and Jews from killing each other, that's got to count for something right?

[Landslide Lyndon]

Very negative.

Not only it was a ruthless and callous regime, but it stifled any kind of intelectual activity and progressive thought.

[GMantis]

Very negative and even that isn't enough. Beside the countless atrocities they committed, they held slowed the  development of all the regions they controlled.
Their policies are also at the root of nearly all Balkan and most Mideastern conflicts.

They kept the Arabs and Jews from killing each other, that's got to count for something right?

There very few Jews while they controlled Palestine.

[Magic 8-Ball]

Very negative.

Not only it was a ruthless and callous regime, but it stifled any kind of intelectual activity and progressive thought.

From what I understand, that's a big part of fundamentalist Islam.  Authors, for example, have to create works within the existing literary realm, essentially rehashing and mixing what their predecessors have written before.

Anyway, very negative.  Do we have any Greeks here?  I'm sure their opinions would be...fun to read.

[GMantis]

Very negative.

Not only it was a ruthless and callous regime, but it stifled any kind of intelectual activity and progressive thought.

From what I understand, that's a big part of fundamentalist Islam.  Authors, for example, have to create works within the existing literary realm, essentially rehashing and mixing what their predecessors have written before.

Anyway, very negative.  Do we have any Greeks here?  I'm sure their opinions would be...fun to read.

Px75 is Greek, and I'm from Bulgaria, which suffered even more.

[minionofmidas]

Negative, obviously. But no worse than most of the countries of its day (not really thinking of its slow terminal 19th century decline, which is other people's fault besides its own).

[GMantis]

Negative, obviously. But no worse than most of the countries of its day (not really thinking of its slow terminal 19th century decline, which is other people's fault besides its own).

Did most of the countries of the day kidnap non-Christian children, in order to turn them by brainwashing into fanatical Christian soldiers?

[minionofmidas]

Negative, obviously. But no worse than most of the countries of its day (not really thinking of its slow terminal 19th century decline, which is other people's fault besides its own).

Did most of the countries of the day kidnap non-Christian children, in order to brainwash into fanatical Christian soldiers?

The Spanish certainly did as well. The Germans tried the approach for a while too, actually, but not for very long and several centuries earlier.

If we're just thinking of "kidnapping", well there's the slave trade...

[Magic 8-Ball]

Very negative.

Not only it was a ruthless and callous regime, but it stifled any kind of intelectual activity and progressive thought.

From what I understand, that's a big part of fundamentalist Islam.  Authors, for example, have to create works within the existing literary realm, essentially rehashing and mixing what their predecessors have written before.

Anyway, very negative.  Do we have any Greeks here?  I'm sure their opinions would be...fun to read.

Px75 is Greek, and I'm from Bulgaria, which suffered even more.

Indeed.  I imagine your position on Turkey's potential entrance into the EU is easy to decipher.

[GMantis]

Negative, obviously. But no worse than most of the countries of its day (not really thinking of its slow terminal 19th century decline, which is other people's fault besides its own).

Did most of the countries of the day kidnap non-Christian children, in order to brainwash into fanatical Christian soldiers?

The Spanish certainly did as well. The Germans tried the approach for a while too, actually, but not for very long and several centuries earlier.

If we're just thinking of "kidnapping", well there's the slave trade...

The Spanish? Who and when?

[dead0man]

Do we have any Armenians?  They probably win the "we hate the Ottomans more" contest.

[minionofmidas]

Negative, obviously. But no worse than most of the countries of its day (not really thinking of its slow terminal 19th century decline, which is other people's fault besides its own).

Did most of the countries of the day kidnap non-Christian children, in order to brainwash into fanatical Christian soldiers?

The Spanish certainly did as well. The Germans tried the approach for a while too, actually, but not for very long and several centuries earlier.

If we're just thinking of "kidnapping", well there's the slave trade...

The Spanish? Who and when?

Native Americans of the "wild" nations along their border of settlement, almost to the very end of their colonial empire there.

[Lief 🗽]

Certainly an awful empire, though the history of the Ottoman Empire is a fascinating subject. In strategy games that cover the period, I generally play as the Ottomans.

[The Mikado]

I knew a certain poster from Rumelia Bulgaria would dominate this thread the second I saw it.

Gets a worse rap than it deserves, though I'm certainly no apologist for it.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Certainly an awful empire, though the history of the Ottoman Empire is a fascinating subject. In strategy games that cover the period, I generally play as the Ottomans.

Funny, when I played Civ III one thing I loved was playing as Christian civilizations and having wars with the Ottomans. I once had an awesome game where my French empire basically dominated one continent and they dominated the other and we had a sort of Cold War. In the end I won on a cultural victory.

[GMantis]

I knew a certain poster from Rumelia Bulgaria would dominate this thread the second I saw it.

Gets a worse rap than it deserves, though I'm certainly no apologist for it.

This once again proves that one's opinion of Turkey is inversely proportional to one's distance from Turkey.
Why do you think that an Empire which abducted children to turn them into soldiers, which encouraged enslaving raids against most of Europe, which caused a demographic catastrophe whenever it arrived and which spent most of the last decades of its existence in ethnically cleansing all Christians doesn't deserve its reputation?

[bgwah]

Very negative.

Long live the Byzantine Empire...

[Gustaf]

My first thought was very negative. Then I thought to myself that this opinion was just a by-product of my ethnic and religious prejudices from historical inheritance. Then I saw the Balkan posters and thought "what the hell, no one is going to notice that from ME"

Very negative it is.

[GMantis]

My first thought was very negative. Then I thought to myself that this opinion was just a by-product of my ethnic and religious prejudices from historical inheritance. Then I saw the Balkan posters and thought "what the hell, no one is going to notice that from ME"

Very negative it is.

Actually, I have a positive opinion of Turks and I'm generaly tolerant of Islam per se. It's the combination of the two under a despotic monarchy that I find extremely negative.

[The Mikado]

I knew a certain poster from Rumelia Bulgaria would dominate this thread the second I saw it.

Gets a worse rap than it deserves, though I'm certainly no apologist for it.

This once again proves that one's opinion of Turkey is inversely proportional to one's distance from Turkey.
Why do you think that an Empire which abducted children to turn them into soldiers, which encouraged enslaving raids against most of Europe, which caused a demographic catastrophe whenever it arrived and which spent most of the last decades of its existence in ethnically cleansing all Christians doesn't deserve its reputation?

The Ottomans, up until their final century, were much more tolerant of Christians (and Jews) within their borders than their Christian neighbors like the Habsburgs were of Protestants living within their borders.  The millet system was surprisingly advanced for its day.

The Janissaries were, of course, a blight on their record that is far too large to ignore, but the Janissaries themselves were one of the most powerful factions within Ottoman society and had a good deal of influence.  While obviously not condoning the kidnapping, a Serbian kid kidnapped into the Janissaries would be a great deal more powerful and probably have a much more high-status life than his brothers and sisters who remained.

Granted, in the 1800s, the Ottomans started getting much more oppressive, and by the rule of the Young Turks and especially World War I they were just plain horrible.  But early on?  One should compare the Ottomans to the Malmuks, Safavids, and their other such rivals, not to today's nations.  They come off pretty well against them.

[TeePee4Prez]

Ehh neutral/lean negative.  Certainly more tolerant of minorities within their empire than the British and they even gave the Irish aid during the Famine plus they kept Palestine in line.  Of course their biggest issues were the Armenian genocide and their issues with the Greeks.  Also, one has to remember their client states the Barbary which ravaged the coastlines of Europe and took over 1 million slaves. 

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Certainly an awful empire, though the history of the Ottoman Empire is a fascinating subject. In strategy games that cover the period, I generally play as the Ottomans.

Funny, when I played Civ III one thing I loved was playing as Christian civilizations and having wars with the Ottomans. I once had an awesome game where my French empire basically dominated one continent and they dominated the other and we had a sort of Cold War. In the end I won on a cultural victory.

I usually play as Russia in Europa Univeralist II and sometimes in Victoria:Revolutions and I usually enjoy carving up the dead carcass that is the Ottoman Empire.

Very negative.

Long live the Byzantine Empire...

I have a much higher opinion of the Byzantines then the Ottomans.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I knew a certain poster from Rumelia Bulgaria would dominate this thread the second I saw it.

Gets a worse rap than it deserves, though I'm certainly no apologist for it.

This once again proves that one's opinion of Turkey is inversely proportional to one's distance from Turkey.
Why do you think that an Empire which abducted children to turn them into soldiers, which encouraged enslaving raids against most of Europe, which caused a demographic catastrophe whenever it arrived and which spent most of the last decades of its existence in ethnically cleansing all Christians doesn't deserve its reputation?

The Ottomans, up until their final century, were much more tolerant of Christians (and Jews) within their borders than their Christian neighbors like the Habsburgs were of Protestants living within their borders.  The millet system was surprisingly advanced for its day.

The Janissaries were, of course, a blight on their record that is far too large to ignore, but the Janissaries themselves were one of the most powerful factions within Ottoman society and had a good deal of influence.  While obviously not condoning the kidnapping, a Serbian kid kidnapped into the Janissaries would be a great deal more powerful and probably have a much more high-status life than his brothers and sisters who remained.

Granted, in the 1800s, the Ottomans started getting much more oppressive, and by the rule of the Young Turks and especially World War I they were just plain horrible.  But early on?  One should compare the Ottomans to the Malmuks, Safavids, and their other such rivals, not to today's nations.  They come off pretty well against them.

I would agree with this (and what Lewis said as well).

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Byzantines = Christian
Ottomans = Muslim
Byzantines > Ottomans