Gallup: Everyone Wants DADT Eliminated: Conservatives, Churchgoers, Old People

[Lunar]

http://www.gallup.com/poll/120764/Conservatives-Shift-Favor-Openly-Gay-Service-Members.aspx

I'm sure repealing that one is really going to stall in Congress...PSYCHE, gotcha there

[Holmes]

Who is Obama even pandering by not acting on this? The people who don't oppose this would probably never vote for him anyway.

[Lief 🗽]

Lunar, you need to understand that Congress is far to the right of the American mainstream, on issues from DADT to healthcare.

[Lunar]

Who is Obama even pandering by not acting on this? The people who don't oppose this would probably never vote for him anyway.

The military bureaucracy in the Pentagon,

but Congress could easily repeal the legislation without Obama, most of them don't really even have a working relationship with the generals and such types.  Amazing how something that could be accomplished in an hour that has 70% approval would take so long.

[Lunar]

Who are the 14% of self-described liberals that are holding out anyway?  Minorities?

[Lunar]

These numbers are skewed.  Liberals want don't ask don't tell repealed because they love gays and can't get enough of them.  Conservatives want it repealed because they don't want gays in the military period.

Incorrect if you're trying to post on the poll numbers.


The question that Gallup polled was whether the military should allow openly gay members, I editorialized in the actual policy in the thread title to shorten things up.  No mention of Don't Ask Don't Tell was asked in the poll, it's possible that that would skew the numbers since people may have an affinity for the actual legislation's title -- I personally don't think people should be talking to their superior officers about their sexuality no matter which way it goes -- but an overwhelming majority support allowing openly gay soldiers to serve.

[Lunar]

Not sure whether your attempts at being offensive are cuter at your attempts at being analytical.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

http://www.gallup.com/poll/120764/Conservatives-Shift-Favor-Openly-Gay-Service-Members.aspx

I'm sure repealing that one is really going to stall in Congress...PSYCHE, gotcha there

see sig

[Lunar]

http://www.gallup.com/poll/120764/Conservatives-Shift-Favor-Openly-Gay-Service-Members.aspx

I'm sure repealing that one is really going to stall in Congress...PSYCHE, gotcha there

see sig

I don't have sigs enabled but I took a look at it through your profile.

What's your point?  Homosexuality is a sin?  Ok.  So are a lot of things, but sinners are not forbidden from joining the army.

So if a west-point graduate and experienced commander wants to fight for the USA and is willing to lay down his life in order to protect you, you'd turn him or her down and ruin their career if you found out they had sexual attractions towards the same gender?

[MK]

I don't ask, and you don't tell.  fair enough to me.

[Lunar]

I don't ask, and you don't tell.  fair enough to me.

That's fine, how about we do that for all sexuality? 

But that's not how Don't Ask Don't Tell works.  We can both agree that a soldier has no business telling everyone how fabulous buttsex is while he's in the barracks, but that's not what's going on.

They investigate, they investigate.  You think all of these tens of thousands of soldiers who are fired are telling their superior officer how fabulous he is?  No, these include many people who are privately gay and are heroic on the battlefield.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/266494_aclu13.html

In her career of 18-plus years, the decorated operating room and flight nurse from McChord Air Force Base earned stellar reviews for her work, which included helping to evacuate the nation's wounded troops and humanitarian missions to aid civilians.

In 2003, President Bush awarded her the Air Medal for her Middle East deployment and, later, the Air Force Commendation Medal, for saving the life of a Defense Department worker.

Less than a year later, after an Air Force investigation, Witt, a reservist, was drummed out.

Her offense: a committed relationship, but with another woman, a civilian, from 1997 to 2003.

Witt had kept her private life private. Or so she thought.

"Some allegations were made and an investigation was started," Witt said flatly. "I certainly didn't tell them."

Witt, who in civilian life works as a physical therapist, nurse and volunteer firefighter, said she was stunned when suddenly confronted in November 2004 following an Air Force investigation begun that summer into her relationship.

The officer who was ordered to tell her broke down and cried, she said. Witt was ordered to go, keep quiet and not tell anyone why.

"I couldn't even say goodbye," she said.

After 18 years of service, Witt was told she could no longer report for duty, no longer be paid and no longer earn points toward retirement. Her promotion to lieutenant colonel was moot.

[MK]

I don't ask, and you don't tell.  fair enough to me.

That's fine, how about we do that for all sexuality? 

But that's not how Don't Ask Don't Tell works.  We can both agree that a soldier has no business telling everyone how fabulous buttsex is while he's in the barracks, but that's not what's going on.

They investigate, they investigate.  You think all of these tens of thousands of soldiers who are fired are telling their superior officer how fabulous he is?  No, these include many people who are privately gay and are heroic on the battlefield.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/266494_aclu13.html

In her career of 18-plus years, the decorated operating room and flight nurse from McChord Air Force Base earned stellar reviews for her work, which included helping to evacuate the nation's wounded troops and humanitarian missions to aid civilians.

In 2003, President Bush awarded her the Air Medal for her Middle East deployment and, later, the Air Force Commendation Medal, for saving the life of a Defense Department worker.

Less than a year later, after an Air Force investigation, Witt, a reservist, was drummed out.

Her offense: a committed relationship, but with another woman, a civilian, from 1997 to 2003.

Witt had kept her private life private. Or so she thought.

"Some allegations were made and an investigation was started," Witt said flatly. "I certainly didn't tell them."

Witt, who in civilian life works as a physical therapist, nurse and volunteer firefighter, said she was stunned when suddenly confronted in November 2004 following an Air Force investigation begun that summer into her relationship.

The officer who was ordered to tell her broke down and cried, she said. Witt was ordered to go, keep quiet and not tell anyone why.

"I couldn't even say goodbye," she said.

After 18 years of service, Witt was told she could no longer report for duty, no longer be paid and no longer earn points toward retirement. Her promotion to lieutenant colonel was moot.

There's more to the story then the seattlepi is leading on or reporting. I trust the Air Forces investigation must have found evidence that she and her partner was more open about the relationship.   

Of course, this is a liberal bastion of Seattle daily newspapers or was.   Go figure the story would be slanted to make the homosexual the victim of an unfair DADT policy.
 

[Lunar]

I've read three-four articles on that in the past, that was just the first one that came up on my Google retread, I didn't see anything that made me think she stood out as a gay [outside of her looks, I suppose, which could have been the basis for an anonymous accusation].  The court is likely to come down harsh against the Air Force in this particular case.  She certainly doesn't sound like that bad of a person to have in the armed forces -- saving lives and lifetime service and all.  But I'm sure you're doing your duty for this country by opposing her right to lay down her life protecting the US.   They investigate the soldiers...

So, how openly gay do you think one has to be in order to have one's career and life ruined and lose one's ability to die for the country?  Anonymous tip plus a private relationship? How gay do you think these thousands of soldiers were?  Even if DADT were repealed, a solider would not be able to act inappropriately or out of line in his conduct while on duty.

[Lunar]

So the United Kingdom, Switzerland, Italy, Israel, Germany, Canada, Australia, and other allies and respectable countries allow openly homosexual service members to die for them, their societies are still held together.

On the other hand, these are ALL of the countries [wiki] that outright ban homosexual service members.  The United States sure looks good among this company:

Brazil
Cuba
Peru
Egypt
Greece
Iran
North Korea
Saudi Arabia
Singapore
South Korea
Syria
Turkey
Venezuela
Yemen



You choose.

[MK]

So the United Kingdom, Switzerland, Italy, Israel, Germany, Canada, Australia, and other allies and respectable countries allow openly homosexual service members to die for them, their societies are still held together.

On the other hand, these are ALL of the countries [wiki] that outright ban homosexual service members.  The United States sure looks good among this company:

Brazil
Cuba
Peru
Egypt
Greece
Iran
North Korea
Saudi Arabia
Singapore
South Korea
Syria
Turkey
Venezuela
Yemen



You choose.

Whats with this "they do it why can't we" arguments?    Why do liberals insist we must be like other countries every step of the way?   

[Lunar]

Why do conservatives insist on using insane strawmen arguments?  Oh wait, now I'm doing it.  How about we both stop and address the underlying point.


That post is clearly not representative of my point, but rather a perspective moment to reflect that maybe the 70% of America that's not on the same side as North Korea and Iran might actually be on the right side of the issue.  Hell, there's a post right before the one you're quoting with more substance.

*bop*


My focus is clearly on:
1) National security - we need these soldiers
2) The rights of individuals to be any sexual orientation they wish in the military, supposing they act with an intense amount of dignity and with respect towards their profession

[MK]

Why do conservatives insist on using insane strawmen arguments?  Oh wait, now I'm doing it.  How about we both stop and address the underlying point.


That post is clearly not representative of my point, but rather a perspective moment to reflect that maybe the 70% of America that's not on the same side as North Korea and Iran might actually be on the right side of the issue.  Hell, there's a post right before the one you're quoting with more substance.

*bop*


My focus is clearly on:
1) National security - we need these soldiers
2) The rights of individuals to be any sexual orientation they wish in the military, supposing they act with an intense amount of dignity and with respect towards their profession

That's all I ask for.  100%

But see the problem is the majority of these cases have more to them then the poor homosexual solider Victim unfair DADT. 

This is not as big of an issue as pro gay rights people are making it out to be.  Just a little over 1,000 service men and women each year.

The case in the seattle paper seems odd because the policy is actually now...  I want ask, you don't tell and nobody will  harass.   Which IMO was a great addition to the policy.   I don't like witch hunts either.

The polls asking non Military population are irrelevant.

[Alcon]

Over 1,000 people unnecessarily losing their careers with an easy fix is not a non-issue.  I don't understand what part you're being sarcastic about, you seem to just be saying that it's unfair but people shouldn't complain about losing their careers because they date (?!)

There are still plenty of DADT instances in which no outright "telling" is done.  Like Lunar said, investigations still occur.  And, besides, people should be forced into pretending not to be in relationships?  Whatever dude

[dead0man]

Who is Obama even pandering by not acting on this? The people who don't oppose this would probably never vote for him anyway.

The military bureaucracy in the Pentagon,

but Congress could easily repeal the legislation without Obama, most of them don't really even have a working relationship with the generals and such types.  Amazing how something that could be accomplished in an hour that has 70% approval would take so long.

I can't find it now, but I'm pretty sure the rank and file of the military doesn't care about DADT anymore either.

I wonder if we can "open" up the more educated Air Force, leave the Army and Marines Corp "straight/butch"....the Navy is plenty gay already.

[Landslide Lyndon]

So the United Kingdom, Switzerland, Italy, Israel, Germany, Canada, Australia, and other allies and respectable countries allow openly homosexual service members to die for them, their societies are still held together.

On the other hand, these are ALL of the countries [wiki] that outright ban homosexual service members.  The United States sure looks good among this company:

Brazil
Cuba
Peru
Egypt
Greece
Iran
North Korea
Saudi Arabia
Singapore
South Korea
Syria
Turkey
Venezuela
Yemen



You choose.

I don't know where this list comes from, but I can assure you that when I served to the Greek Navy in 2001-03 there were plenty of homosexuals serving.
I think there is still a law banning them from service, but its enforcement stopped many years ago.

[Lunar]

Fair enough.

It's just the wikipedia article on homosexuality in military service.

It's all about how aggressively that the law is implemented.  If DADT only banned soldiers that were "fabulous" or what have you, or explicit in their sex life, this would be a non-issue.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Lunar, you need to understand that Congress is far to the right of the American mainstream, on issues from DADT to healthcare.

Especially if you count the 60th most liberal Senator needed for cloture.

[Lunar]

Snowe, Lugar and Collins would support getting rid of DADT so Bayh and Nelson are irrelevant.  Hell, that Republican from rural New York that's the new Army Secretary wants to get rid of DADT too.  Wouldn't surprise me if some Senators eying at running for the presidency in 2016 would also vote for it.

But a majority of the country supports gays in the military.  This includes Southerners and Conservatives and Midwesterners and frequent churchgoers and so on down the list.  I would not expect Nelson or Bayh to join in the filibuster of this, although they may privately ask Reid not to push forward on the issue.

Hell, we may actually see this get put to a vote in the next couple years and test any hypothesis you want to be put forward.