Across Europe, the Left is Waning

[Hash]

The PSOE is polling extremely well for a governing party in a country with 17% unemployment. However, that also has a lot to do with the PP being a Franquist party and Spanish politics being so polarized between left and right nowadays.

The PP is hardly Franquist. They've been movingly increasingly to the center under Rajoy's inept leadership. Look at the Alternativa Española for a true Franquist party.

The hyperbole didn't work it seems.

Anyways, Rajoy moving the party to the centre? Either you have a very perverted definition of centre, or you haven't been following Spanish politics well. Rajoy is a member of the Aznar conservative wing, Ruiz-Gallardón is a centrist. If anything, Rajoy has added a nationalist element to the PP with the "Spanishness" thing.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The PP is basically the successor of a party founded by former Franco government officials, hence the labeling Franquist.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

The PSOE is polling extremely well for a governing party in a country with 17% unemployment. However, that also has a lot to do with the PP being a Franquist party and Spanish politics being so polarized between left and right nowadays.

The PP is hardly Franquist. They've been movingly increasingly to the center under Rajoy's inept leadership. Look at the Alternativa Española for a true Franquist party.

Yea come on. I see this PP being a franquist party bs being spouted around here all the time. They were in power with an absolute majority a few years ago. What "franquist" policies did they adopt then? The left here does the same thing all the time, saying perfectly mainstream right-wing parties are Salazarist, not because they are, but because they like to dig up ghosts of the past to rally their bases that are still living in 1975.

I can't speak for Portugal but the Spanish PP have a strong anti-regionalist stance (and thus FOR greater central government) thus the association (well that and the other reasons mentioned).

Obviously rubbish, left-wing parties did reasonably well in Ireland today. Even the SWP reformed managed to pick up council seats.

[You kip if you want to...]

So David Cameron = Evan Bayh?

I just realised how similar they are just seconds before reading this post. Evan is by far less obnoxious than Cameron though.

Yeah, I know, I know.    He just seems like more of an opportunist when it comes to his ideology than anything.

Very true.

[Phony Moderate]

First of all, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the"left" wing and the "right" wing parties in Europe these days anyway. Second, most of the so called "far-right" parties tend to be fairly left wing on the economic issues.

[Associate Justice PiT]

First of all, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the"left" wing and the "right" wing parties in Europe these days anyway. Second, most of the so called "far-right" parties tend to be fairly left wing on the economic issues.

     The thing that receives little notice nowadays is that the fascists (which many far-right European parties are modeled on) tended to have fairly leftist economic views.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

First of all, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the"left" wing and the "right" wing parties in Europe these days anyway. Second, most of the so called "far-right" parties tend to be fairly left wing on the economic issues.

     The thing that receives little notice nowadays is that the fascists (which many far-right European parties are modeled on) tended to have fairly leftist economic views.

LOLZ.

[Phony Moderate]

First of all, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the"left" wing and the "right" wing parties in Europe these days anyway. Second, most of the so called "far-right" parties tend to be fairly left wing on the economic issues.

     The thing that receives little notice nowadays is that the fascists (which many far-right European parties are modeled on) tended to have fairly leftist economic views.

Exactly. The BNP have this crazy idea of abolishing the income tax (which is one of the few economic issues thaey would be considered "right wing" on) while spending through the roof on healthcare, pensions, defence, etc.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

First of all, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the"left" wing and the "right" wing parties in Europe these days anyway. Second, most of the so called "far-right" parties tend to be fairly left wing on the economic issues.

     The thing that receives little notice nowadays is that the fascists (which many far-right European parties are modeled on) tended to have fairly leftist economic views.

Exactly. The BNP have this crazy idea of abolishing the income tax (which is one of the few economic issues thaey would be considered "right wing" on) while spending through the roof on healthcare, pensions, defence, etc.

To Channel Alun's spirit (whatever it is), no-one really votes for them due to their economic policies.

[You kip if you want to...]

First of all, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the"left" wing and the "right" wing parties in Europe these days anyway. Second, most of the so called "far-right" parties tend to be fairly left wing on the economic issues.

     The thing that receives little notice nowadays is that the fascists (which many far-right European parties are modeled on) tended to have fairly leftist economic views.

Exactly. The BNP have this crazy idea of abolishing the income tax (which is one of the few economic issues thaey would be considered "right wing" on) while spending through the roof on healthcare, pensions, defence, etc.

Not to mention the grants they'd be giving out to non-white to leave.

[Associate Justice PiT]

First of all, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the"left" wing and the "right" wing parties in Europe these days anyway. Second, most of the so called "far-right" parties tend to be fairly left wing on the economic issues.

     The thing that receives little notice nowadays is that the fascists (which many far-right European parties are modeled on) tended to have fairly leftist economic views.

Exactly. The BNP have this crazy idea of abolishing the income tax (which is one of the few economic issues thaey would be considered "right wing" on) while spending through the roof on healthcare, pensions, defence, etc.

To Channel Alun's spirit (whatever it is), no-one really votes for them due to their economic policies.

     While I agree with you 100%, I wanted to point out that they nevertheless do support those economic policies.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

This bs has been in Danish newspapers too. Apparently nobody bothers to do a bit of comparasing or look at bit of poling!
SPD looks like it is going to get at better election than last time and CDU is loosing votes.
PS had a really good election last time, but is back to normal and loosing votes to the left mostly!
PSOE failing? Come on.
The only two places where this is remotely true is Great "havn't really realised our Empire is gone and that we are a part of Europe" Britain and Berlusconiland, where they love their dirt corrupt politicians. (sorry about the irony, but I'm fed up with journalists who looks at one poll and makes all kinds of assumptions)

So in other words, European journalists are half as lazy as American journalists? That's pretty lazy.

[minionofmidas]

So David Cameron = Evan Bayh?

I was thinking of Ellen Tauscher, but Bayh works too I suppose.

[Phony Moderate]

I'd say UKIP are the furthest to the right here in the UK, they have libertarian economic policies and fairly social conservative views too.

[Hash]

The left-right spectrum is crap, anyhow.

[You kip if you want to...]

I'd say UKIP are the furthest to the right here in the UK, they have libertarian economic policies and fairly social conservative views too.

The BNP are far, far more to the right, certainly on social issues.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

First of all, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the"left" wing and the "right" wing parties in Europe these days anyway. Second, most of the so called "far-right" parties tend to be fairly left wing on the economic issues.

     The thing that receives little notice nowadays is that the fascists (which many far-right European parties are modeled on) tended to have fairly leftist economic views.

Exactly. The BNP have this crazy idea of abolishing the income tax (which is one of the few economic issues thaey would be considered "right wing" on) while spending through the roof on healthcare, pensions, defence, etc.

To Channel Alun's spirit (whatever it is), no-one really votes for them due to their economic policies.

     While I agree with you 100%, I wanted to point out that they nevertheless do support those economic policies.

... none of which are left wing. At least in the way the spectrum is in any way understood around here. Here I mimic what Hashemite said.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

The left-right spectrum is crap, anyhow.

You finally goes to Bayrou.

[Hash]

The left-right spectrum is crap, anyhow.

You finally goes to Bayrou.

Not in that regard. In a political context not related to any country.

[Associate Justice PiT]

First of all, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the"left" wing and the "right" wing parties in Europe these days anyway. Second, most of the so called "far-right" parties tend to be fairly left wing on the economic issues.

     The thing that receives little notice nowadays is that the fascists (which many far-right European parties are modeled on) tended to have fairly leftist economic views.

Exactly. The BNP have this crazy idea of abolishing the income tax (which is one of the few economic issues thaey would be considered "right wing" on) while spending through the roof on healthcare, pensions, defence, etc.

To Channel Alun's spirit (whatever it is), no-one really votes for them due to their economic policies.

     While I agree with you 100%, I wanted to point out that they nevertheless do support those economic policies.

... none of which are left wing. At least in the way the spectrum is in any way understood around here. Here I mimic what Hashemite said.

     They're only moderately leftist. Or more specifically, they would be regarded as such by American standards, though many economic policies supported by fascist governments are not that controversial in Europe.

     I wanted to point this out mainly because of a misconception amongst certain left-leaning individuals that fascist is a catch-all term that can be applied to extreme right-wingers, as if fascists actually support economically libertarian policies.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

First of all, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the"left" wing and the "right" wing parties in Europe these days anyway. Second, most of the so called "far-right" parties tend to be fairly left wing on the economic issues.

     The thing that receives little notice nowadays is that the fascists (which many far-right European parties are modeled on) tended to have fairly leftist economic views.

Exactly. The BNP have this crazy idea of abolishing the income tax (which is one of the few economic issues thaey would be considered "right wing" on) while spending through the roof on healthcare, pensions, defence, etc.

To Channel Alun's spirit (whatever it is), no-one really votes for them due to their economic policies.

     While I agree with you 100%, I wanted to point out that they nevertheless do support those economic policies.

... none of which are left wing. At least in the way the spectrum is in any way understood around here. Here I mimic what Hashemite said.

     They're only moderately leftist. Or more specifically, they would be regarded as such by American standards, though many economic policies supported by fascist governments are not that controversial in Europe.

     I wanted to point this out mainly because of a misconception amongst certain left-leaning individuals that fascist is a catch-all term that can be applied to extreme right-wingers, as if fascists actually support economically libertarian policies.

Nonsense. Left-Right originally referred to the split in the French National Assembly following the French Revolution between the different shades of monarchists and republicans. Many of the former were those that benefitted from the expansion of bureaucracy under the Absolutist regime while many on the 'left' were those liberals who wanted an economic situation as in the books of Adam Smith [/massive simplification]. The Left/Right relationship was about one's position in society and ones relationship towards power and towards what was understood to be 'traditionalist'. In this way and in many others the BNP and their ilk are contuining an extreme reactionary line towards modernity that may date back to the likes of Joseph De Maistre and those clerics who held that the Jews were responsible for the French Revolution. This you will see has nothing to do with economic policies. People did not and do not think blankly in such terms (and dividing 'economic issues' from 'social issues' is the dumbest piece of s**te in American Politics... and that is saying something).

The concept that left-right has anything to do with "state control" (or worse, that levels of state control in a liberal democracy tells us anything at all about the nature of government) is purely an American Invention which is very strange when looked at from any non-American perspective.

[Associate Justice PiT]

First of all, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the"left" wing and the "right" wing parties in Europe these days anyway. Second, most of the so called "far-right" parties tend to be fairly left wing on the economic issues.

     The thing that receives little notice nowadays is that the fascists (which many far-right European parties are modeled on) tended to have fairly leftist economic views.

Exactly. The BNP have this crazy idea of abolishing the income tax (which is one of the few economic issues thaey would be considered "right wing" on) while spending through the roof on healthcare, pensions, defence, etc.

To Channel Alun's spirit (whatever it is), no-one really votes for them due to their economic policies.

     While I agree with you 100%, I wanted to point out that they nevertheless do support those economic policies.

... none of which are left wing. At least in the way the spectrum is in any way understood around here. Here I mimic what Hashemite said.

     They're only moderately leftist. Or more specifically, they would be regarded as such by American standards, though many economic policies supported by fascist governments are not that controversial in Europe.

     I wanted to point this out mainly because of a misconception amongst certain left-leaning individuals that fascist is a catch-all term that can be applied to extreme right-wingers, as if fascists actually support economically libertarian policies.

Nonsense. Left-Right originally referred to the split in the French National Assembly following the French Revolution between the different shades of monarchists and republicans. Many of the former were those that benefitted from the expansion of bureaucracy under the Absolutist regime while many on the 'left' were those liberals who wanted an economic situation as in the books of Adam Smith [/massive simplification]. The Left/Right relationship was about one's position in society and ones relationship towards power and towards what was understood to be 'traditionalist'. In this way and in many others the BNP and their ilk are contuining an extreme reactionary line towards modernity that may date back to the likes of Joseph De Maistre and those clerics who held that the Jews were responsible for the French Revolution. This you will see has nothing to do with economic policies. People did not and do not think blankly in such terms (and dividing 'economic issues' from 'social issues' is the dumbest piece of s**te in American Politics... and that is saying something).

The concept that left-right has anything to do with "state control" (or worse, that levels of state control in a liberal democracy tells us anything at all about the nature of government) is purely an American Invention which is very strange when looked at from any non-American perspective.

     Fair enough. I was approaching the issue from an American perspective, & I see what you mean in criticizing that. As fascism is not an American invention, it makes sense that the American political paradigm would fail to satisfactorily describe it.

[Beet]

Even in America, the Left was originally associated with the small government viewpoint from the 1780s until sometime between 1880 and 1930. It was not until the industrial revolution that the left began to, in the words of one liberal, "use Hamiltonian means to achieve Jeffersonian ends." It is, in part, a perception that the government, the Federal Reserve in particular, is now using Hamiltonian means to Hamiltonian ends (e.g., in the pockets of Wall Street over Main Street) that is feeding a lot of the backlash against it, as well. Despite the Republican party's tentative attempts to capitalize, I was completely wrong to characterize this sentiment as being right-wing, I now realize.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Bizarrely, the closest major American Political movement to fascism (that is native to the White Population and isn't just an import from Europe) is certain types of Randian Objectivism/Libertarianism especially when associated with either the close-the-borders crowd and/or "it's okay to shot illegals as they are trepassing private property" gang. I should stress I mean this only in regards to certain aspects, but it is the closest.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Bizarrely, the closest major American Political movement to fascism (that is native to the White Population and isn't just an import from Europe) is certain types of Randian Objectivism/Libertarianism especially when associated with either the close-the-borders crowd and/or "it's okay to shot illegals as they are trepassing private property" gang. I should stress I mean this only in regards to certain aspects, but it is the closest.

     The odd thing is that Ron Paul's more xenophobic followers really are not libertarian in any way relating to the central ideology of the libertarian movement. Paleo-conservatives are anti-statist because they believe that the family unit should be supreme & shielded from government interference while Libertarians are anti-statist because they believe in the importance of protecting the freedoms of individuals. Two groups who believe in the same means, but with radically different ends.