GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- winner: Willy BRANDT, over Adenauer !

[Antonio the Sixth]

Kohl

No, I hated his hugely opportunistic behaviour (Irak war e.g.).

You just seem to forget that Chirac, Villepin, Schröder were right and that Bush, Rumsfeld, H. Clinton and Blair were wrong ( or even liars for the first two ) on Iraq. You can't honestly blame someone for having been right just because you supported those who were wrong.

Be careful: I've said that Chirac, Schröder, Berlusconi were pro-Putin. I haven't refered to Iraq on this.
And on Iraq, I'm not saying that Schröder was wrong, I'm saying that he over-exploited this in his own advantage.
He was so glad to hide his own unpopular reforms -especially in his own camp- behind the Iraq war.
Without a warmonger in the WH, Schröder would probably have been beaten.

Even Chirac hasn't tried to use Iraq in 2004 elections (granted, they were local; except that the socialists made them national, so he could have used Villepin and all this foreign stuff).

Again, I agree with many things and policies Schröder led. And I'm of course convinced that the Iraq war was a big strategic mistake, based on a big lie.

I just don't like the man and his "career" afterwards...

So what you are doing is judging him on mere intent, saying "yes, I would have done what he did, but he did it for the bad reasons". Probably you are right and he did it for political reasons, and so what ? The only thing that counts is that he refused to follow Bush and Blair in their crusade against the Evil, and I would prefer a crook that takes the good decision in order to be elected, than an honest idealist who really thought he was going to free Iraq but in fact ruined his country and destroyed all the Middle East.

No, no, that's not the point.

Don't mix the decision to say "no" to Bush and the campaign. Refusing to take part in the war was a good decision based on good motives, no problem. I don't have any remark on this: I agree with you, with Schröder, with Chirac (even though the personal behaviour of Villepin was ridiculous... many French thought he was almost a hero then because he "resisted" the USA; I thought about REAL acts of resistance: those of de Gaulle, Moulin, Frenay, Aubrac, etc).

No. I'm talking about the over-exploitation of this subject during the campaign. I.e. I'm talking about the fact that, during the campaign, he tried to hide any other debate about any other question than Iraq. That's the point.

OK, understood. Thanks for explanations.

[Antonio the Sixth]

but in fact ruined his country and destroyed all the Middle East.

Please explain.

I agree with Franzl, who will probably tell you that the Middle East has been a mess for, well, many centuries, but at least since 1917 (Sykes-Picot) and that the evil Bush (yes, he was a bad, a very bad president) isn't the only and first cause of all this.
But you'll start again on the only question that gathered all French people in modern times... (and so not an interesting question....) and discuss on Palestine/Israël, etc, the most sterile debate in the world ever !

Please, don't make me play the part of the primarily anti-american french idiot. What the hell would I do on this forum if I believed that USA were the Empire of Evil ? I think it's a great nation, a nation that could promote democracy in the world, but only on condition that his actions are intelligent and considered, not simplistic and ideologic.

Bush is not the Lord of Evil, he is just an idiot.

[big bad fab]

but in fact ruined his country and destroyed all the Middle East.

Please explain.

I agree with Franzl, who will probably tell you that the Middle East has been a mess for, well, many centuries, but at least since 1917 (Sykes-Picot) and that the evil Bush (yes, he was a bad, a very bad president) isn't the only and first cause of all this.
But you'll start again on the only question that gathered all French people in modern times... (and so not an interesting question....) and discuss on Palestine/Israël, etc, the most sterile debate in the world ever !

Please, don't make me play the part of the primarily anti-american french idiot. What the hell would I do on this forum if I believed that USA were the Empire of Evil ? I think it's a great nation, a nation that could promote democracy in the world, but only on condition that his actions are intelligent and considered, not simplistic and ideologic.

Bush is not the Lord of Evil, he is just an idiot.

That wasn't my aim. No offense.
Just that Bush didn't "destroy all the Middle East": he screwed many things up, but not everything.

[big bad fab]

Back to Germany and an horrible round for your organizer-in-chief, forced to acknowledge that Kohl is clearly out, even before Fehrenbach, Marx or Scheel... Bouhouhou...

ROUND TWENTY-ONE IS OPEN

I vote for Scheel.

Not a real chancellor as Old Europe explained us once.
Another big opportunistic guy () when, in 1966, he broke the coalition with CDU, resulting in the wonderful great coalition under the wonderful Kiesinger...
Did he have a real influence on Germany's policies ? I'm not so sure.
So, useless to keep him alive here.

[Franzl]

Scheel I guess

For the simple reason that he was never chancellor.

[tmthforu94]

Scheel

[Hash]

Walter Scheel

[minionofmidas]

Oh yes. We ought to have taken care of that long ago.

Scheel.

[Edu]

Walter Scheel

[big bad fab]

A unanimous vote in sight ?
We would have a breathing round before fighting on those left (but without Kohl ).

[Antonio the Sixth]

So, I'm not going to break this wonderful unanimity...
Scheel

but in fact ruined his country and destroyed all the Middle East.

Please explain.

I agree with Franzl, who will probably tell you that the Middle East has been a mess for, well, many centuries, but at least since 1917 (Sykes-Picot) and that the evil Bush (yes, he was a bad, a very bad president) isn't the only and first cause of all this.
But you'll start again on the only question that gathered all French people in modern times... (and so not an interesting question....) and discuss on Palestine/Israël, etc, the most sterile debate in the world ever !

Please, don't make me play the part of the primarily anti-american french idiot. What the hell would I do on this forum if I believed that USA were the Empire of Evil ? I think it's a great nation, a nation that could promote democracy in the world, but only on condition that his actions are intelligent and considered, not simplistic and ideologic.

Bush is not the Lord of Evil, he is just an idiot.

That wasn't my aim. No offense.
Just that Bush didn't "destroy all the Middle East": he screwed many things up, but not everything.

Yes, I certainly used a too emphatic tone. I obviousily exaggerated saying that, and I didn't want to mean what you understood. Really sorry .

[big bad fab]

You're welcome

I've written about unanimity only because I think we'll find someone who will break it

[Lincoln Republican]

Helmut Schmidt

[big bad fab]

Helmut Schmidt

Winfield the great broke our grey unanimity !
And without having been PMed on this subject !

[Hans-im-Glück]

Back to Germany and an horrible round for your organizer-in-chief, forced to acknowledge that Kohl is clearly out, even before Fehrenbach, Marx or Scheel... Bouhouhou...

In the last round we had only the choice between Kohl and Schröder. Then it's no surprise that Kohl was eliminated. Bismarck must go earlier and wasn't a bad chancellor. He was better as 50% of the remaining  

This Round:

Walter Scheel

[Lincoln Republican]

Unanimity voting smacks of authoritarianism.

[big bad fab]

The non-chancellor is out.

ROUND TWENTY-TWO IS OPEN

I vote for Schröder.

[Hans-im-Glück]

I vote for Ludwig Erhard

He had no qualification as chancellor.

[minionofmidas]

Erhard

[Franzl]

Schröder

[big bad fab]

Erhard

Thanks for keeping voting in this, despite the World Leaders Survivor events

[Edu]

Ludwig Erhard

[minionofmidas]

Erhard

Thanks for keeping voting in this, despite the World Leaders Survivor events

Of course.

You're a dirty conservative hack, but it's nothing personal as far as I'm concerned.

Besides, gotta save Schröder's ass for at least two or three more rounds yet. His economic policies sucked, by and large and with exceptions, but he dragged the federal government out of 16 years of effective nonexistence as far as any kind of answers to or even awareness of societal changes are concerned (including what the US calls social issues, but not limited to that). Heck, he even dragged the CDU ('s leading personnel) out of that - not that all of the answers they're giving now are better than no answer at all.

But deep down, the reason I still have a soft spot for the Patrons' Comrade is that he was, undeniably, of the Common People. And couldn't have denied it if he tried (so he made an act of it instead - part of it was an act, of course.)

[big bad fab]

Erhard

Thanks for keeping voting in this, despite the World Leaders Survivor events

Of course.

You're a dirty conservative hack, but it's nothing personal as far as I'm concerned.

Besides, gotta save Schröder's ass for at least two or three more rounds yet. His economic policies sucked, by and large and with exceptions, but he dragged the federal government out of 16 years of effective nonexistence as far as any kind of answers to or even awareness of societal changes are concerned (including what the US calls social issues, but not limited to that). Heck, he even dragged the CDU ('s leading personnel) out of that - not that all of the answers they're giving now are better than no answer at all.

But deep down, the reason I still have a soft spot for the Patrons' Comrade is that he was, undeniably, of the Common People. And couldn't have denied it if he tried (so he made an act of it instead - part of it was an act, of course.)

Nice advocating of Schröder: I almost regret my vote. And I say it without any irony.

[tmthforu94]

Schröder