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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #125 on: June 21, 2009, 08:58:17 pm »
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Among those to not vote for the bill was Senator HappyWarrior(DA-MD), who said, "I like the bill but I think it violates the powers of the regions." He voted abstain. The only senator to vote nay on the bill was Senator Marokai (JCP-AZ) who, when questioned as to why he voted nay, said, "The bill, I think, unfortunately falls victim to the idea that if we make kids work, we can make all children scientists, mathematicians, astronauts, historians, football players, and so on, rather than giving all kids a basic education in all subjects, and focusing on what kids are most proficient in."

I appreciate you putting that in. Smiley
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Vepres
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« Reply #126 on: June 21, 2009, 09:00:18 pm »
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Among those to not vote for the bill was Senator HappyWarrior(DA-MD), who said, "I like the bill but I think it violates the powers of the regions." He voted abstain. The only senator to vote nay on the bill was Senator Marokai (JCP-AZ) who, when questioned as to why he voted nay, said, "The bill, I think, unfortunately falls victim to the idea that if we make kids work, we can make all children scientists, mathematicians, astronauts, historians, football players, and so on, rather than giving all kids a basic education in all subjects, and focusing on what kids are most proficient in."

I appreciate you putting that in. Smiley

No problem.
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« Reply #127 on: June 22, 2009, 03:06:34 am »
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Guys, regional Senate elections, as evidence by the ones currently happening, are boring and awful. Why do we want more of them again?

^^^
Again, another series of tired, uncompetitive regional elections.
They haven't worked for years.

I don't like that there are so many safe seats in the Senate and I don't like systems which allow that to thrive.

Every PR-STV election so far has went down to the final minutes. Few candidates have been safe in those elections until late into balloting. By comparison, many of this weekend's races were effectively over before official polling began. -_-

Our senate race is competitive, so not all are boring. The Mideast's would've been had Persepolis not been Ogis. The Northeast's would've also been competitive if Smid endorsed Ronan, the candidate from his party. Something needs to be done about the Southeast and Pacific. I think we should redraw the regions, reduced them to five, and draw them so there are no safe elections.

Edit: What about senatorial term limits? This would not only cycle newbies into the system but also prevent uncompetitive elections.

Yes, the Midwestern race is competitive. That's 1 of 5. IMO, that's not good enough.
If you review the election results in regional (and district elections) for the past couple of years, you'll find that that's about average. (I'd also bear in mind that Fritz entered the race ostensibly for the purpose of having a proper election.)

I disagree with your analysis of the Mideastern and Northeastern elections. Given the declared candidates, neither race was ever likely to be competitive. Your analysis in the Northeast is, I think,  particularly wide of the mark as I'd suggest that Smid runs far ahead of his party there, as indeed he would in just about every region. Few other RPPers could get close to winning there.

On Senatorial term-limits, I would suggest that that would only exacerbate the problem of uncompetitive elections as you're simply reducing the likely number of competitors.

Thereis nothing you can do about the Southeast or Pacific - they are one party regions. The Pacific having been so for quite some time now; the Southeast having slowly seen its non-RPP membership scuttle off into anonymity. The idea that reducing the number of regions will solve anything seems to me to be flawed - it admits that the current set-up isn't working but presumes a small increase in population will revive activity. However, there is no relationship as things stand between the population of the various regions and their activity levels. The regions have failed both as a system of government and as a basis for allowing competitive elections to the Senate.

I'm newer, so I wouldn't know that Smid was more electable.

Anyway, let's say we completely redrew the regions so that there were only three with roughly a 33:33:33 ratio of moderates, conservatives/libertarians, and liberals.

I'd like to see that attempt (and indeed there is plenty of fresh data from this election to work with) -  bearing in mind that any change will require the approval of 4 of the 5 regions already in existence including the 2 that are effectively one party regions.


Besides, the only alternative to regions is a European-like system (which I personally hate the whole concept of a parliamentarian system, but that's another debate) as there wouldn't be enough positions for newbies in our current system without regionalism.

The ConCon is there to propse and debate alternatives and they produced many more than 1.

At any rate, i disagree with your suggestion that we have newbies all that involved in regional Government.
In the Pacific we have CultureKing and Alcon.
In the Midwest, GMantis and Lewis.
In the Northeast, Andrew and Moderate.
In the Mideast, Inks.
In the Southeast, Duke and Daniel Adams.

How many of these are newbies? Close to 0.


If we decrease the number of regions to 3, and perhaps decentralize our government so the regions have more power, than regional elections would matter more. For example, education should be more of a regional responsibility than a federal one as it is in real life.

I've heard regionalists moan for quite some time now about their lack of power (and proceed to do nothing but moan about it at any given election). The truth is that the regions already have substantial power. Indeed in your own example, I would put it to you that education is something almost entirely within the region's remit.
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« Reply #128 on: June 22, 2009, 09:15:36 am »
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Guys, regional Senate elections, as evidence by the ones currently happening, are boring and awful. Why do we want more of them again?

^^^
Again, another series of tired, uncompetitive regional elections.
They haven't worked for years.

I don't like that there are so many safe seats in the Senate and I don't like systems which allow that to thrive.

Every PR-STV election so far has went down to the final minutes. Few candidates have been safe in those elections until late into balloting. By comparison, many of this weekend's races were effectively over before official polling began. -_-

Our senate race is competitive, so not all are boring. The Mideast's would've been had Persepolis not been Ogis. The Northeast's would've also been competitive if Smid endorsed Ronan, the candidate from his party. Something needs to be done about the Southeast and Pacific. I think we should redraw the regions, reduced them to five, and draw them so there are no safe elections.

Edit: What about senatorial term limits? This would not only cycle newbies into the system but also prevent uncompetitive elections.

Yes, the Midwestern race is competitive. That's 1 of 5. IMO, that's not good enough.
If you review the election results in regional (and district elections) for the past couple of years, you'll find that that's about average. (I'd also bear in mind that Fritz entered the race ostensibly for the purpose of having a proper election.)

I disagree with your analysis of the Mideastern and Northeastern elections. Given the declared candidates, neither race was ever likely to be competitive. Your analysis in the Northeast is, I think,  particularly wide of the mark as I'd suggest that Smid runs far ahead of his party there, as indeed he would in just about every region. Few other RPPers could get close to winning there.

On Senatorial term-limits, I would suggest that that would only exacerbate the problem of uncompetitive elections as you're simply reducing the likely number of competitors.

Thereis nothing you can do about the Southeast or Pacific - they are one party regions. The Pacific having been so for quite some time now; the Southeast having slowly seen its non-RPP membership scuttle off into anonymity. The idea that reducing the number of regions will solve anything seems to me to be flawed - it admits that the current set-up isn't working but presumes a small increase in population will revive activity. However, there is no relationship as things stand between the population of the various regions and their activity levels. The regions have failed both as a system of government and as a basis for allowing competitive elections to the Senate.

I'm newer, so I wouldn't know that Smid was more electable.

Anyway, let's say we completely redrew the regions so that there were only three with roughly a 33:33:33 ratio of moderates, conservatives/libertarians, and liberals.

I'd like to see that attempt (and indeed there is plenty of fresh data from this election to work with) -  bearing in mind that any change will require the approval of 4 of the 5 regions already in existence including the 2 that are effectively one party regions.


Besides, the only alternative to regions is a European-like system (which I personally hate the whole concept of a parliamentarian system, but that's another debate) as there wouldn't be enough positions for newbies in our current system without regionalism.

The ConCon is there to propse and debate alternatives and they produced many more than 1.

At any rate, i disagree with your suggestion that we have newbies all that involved in regional Government.
In the Pacific we have CultureKing and Alcon.
In the Midwest, GMantis and Lewis.
In the Northeast, Andrew and Moderate.
In the Mideast, Inks.
In the Southeast, Duke and Daniel Adams.

How many of these are newbies? Close to 0.


If we decrease the number of regions to 3, and perhaps decentralize our government so the regions have more power, than regional elections would matter more. For example, education should be more of a regional responsibility than a federal one as it is in real life.

I've heard regionalists moan for quite some time now about their lack of power (and proceed to do nothing but moan about it at any given election). The truth is that the regions already have substantial power. Indeed in your own example, I would put it to you that education is something almost entirely within the region's remit.

Personally, as long as our system has regions and a US style government, I don't care what reforms are made.
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Vepres
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« Reply #129 on: June 22, 2009, 09:44:07 am »
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The Atlasian Sentinel

Senator PiT Appears to Have Won the Presidency
By Vepres

Despite some claiming certain votes for PiT invalid, most, including JCP members, have already congratulated PiT on his apparent victory. The election was a close one, with PiT garnering 51.1% of the vote, and Lief receiving 48.9% of the vote. Unless something unforeseen happens with some of the votes, PiT is our next president.



The DA Seizes Control of the Senate
By Vepres

The DA now has a majority in the senate with five members. While this is less significant than a takeover by one of the more ideological parties, it shows that the moderates have a hold on the legislative branch. Our incoming President, PiT, is a staunch libertarian RPP member, and may have trouble getting the more partisan parts of his agenda through the now moderate congress. Unlike the DA, the RPP took a relative beating in this election, losing two seats if you include the special election earlier this month. The JCP's power is about the same, with three members.



President Bgwah Gives Some Final Thoughts as President
By Vepres

President Bgwah delivered a few thoughts to the public in his last days in office. He expressed a great deal of excitement about the turnout, which was double last year's. His address was not very partisan, though he did admit disappointment that his party's candidate, Lief, lost. He did note that it was impressive Lief came so close to winning, given the fact he had a partisan ticket, but added that it was good for Atlasia as it created a close election.

He also stated that he viewed the constitutional convention, probably the most important thing he did in second term, as a mistake.

Quote from: bgwah
The problems facing Atlasia weren’t related to the Constitution. Our problems stemmed from the collapse of parties and the lack of competitive elections. Our concern now should be to combat the ideology of Antillianism. What is Antillianism, you ask? I refer to the idea that we should move towards a parliamentary government. I find such ideas to be completely ridiculous. Our fictional nation is not hosted on the United Kingdom Election Atlas! Our government should continue to mimic the United States. I personally vow to fight any attempt to move toward a parliamentary system. The forumers behind this idea tried it in the Antillia simulation and it failed. So now they want to try it in Atlasia. Let us learn from past mistakes and avoid any such type of government like the plague.

Notice that he criticized those who wanted to move towards a parliamentary system of government, but also those who wished to add more seats or even another house to the legislative branch.

Quote from: bgwah
Some think we should expand the Senate or add a House (increase the number of seats in our legislature). I disagree. Atlasia is about elections, and part of having elections requires more people interested in running for office than there are offices available. Look at what happened in this election. Competitive elections cause candidates to register people--it causes them to introduce more people to the game."

All in all, he expressed satisfaction at the increased activity during his tenure as president, and wished PiT the best of luck.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 10:10:10 am by Vepres »Logged

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DownWithTheLeft
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« Reply #130 on: June 22, 2009, 09:54:51 am »
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Ugh, not that "RPP is dead" drums again.  I had some problems and for that I apoligize, but my seat is easily winnable back in the next cycle.  There is little to no chance that the RPP cannot win back at least 1 at-large senate seat.  I have no idea who won in the Northeast (election coverage is awful), but I hope Smid will be back for the next cycle and I have give him a great chance to win his old seat back if he wants it.

And hello, we just won the presidency for the first in our history.  As we approach our one-year anniversery, don't think we are dead at all.
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« Reply #131 on: June 22, 2009, 10:07:53 am »
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Ugh, not that "RPP is dead" drums again.  I had some problems and for that I apoligize, but my seat is easily winnable back in the next cycle.  There is little to no chance that the RPP cannot win back at least 1 at-large senate seat.  I have no idea who won in the Northeast (election coverage is awful), but I hope Smid will be back for the next cycle and I have give him a great chance to win his old seat back if he wants it.

And hello, we just won the presidency for the first in our history.  As we approach our one-year anniversery, don't think we are dead at all.

I didn't say you were dead, I said your President would have trouble getting his agenda through a more moderate congress (though some parts are nonpartisan).
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« Reply #132 on: June 22, 2009, 12:35:13 pm »
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President Bgwah Gives Some Final Thoughts as President
By Vepres

I would just like to point out that, while bgwah at first criticizes the sudden influx of new members as "mysterious" and a "strategy" he does not approve of, he goes on to pat himself on the back for bringing in so many new members and says that reform is unnecessary because "competitive elections cause candidates to register people."

Some consistency from the President (and a critical eye from the press) would be greatly appreciated.
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Vepres
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« Reply #133 on: June 22, 2009, 01:20:15 pm »
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President Bgwah Gives Some Final Thoughts as President
By Vepres

I would just like to point out that, while bgwah at first criticizes the sudden influx of new members as "mysterious" and a "strategy" he does not approve of, he goes on to pat himself on the back for bringing in so many new members and says that reform is unnecessary because "competitive elections cause candidates to register people."

Some consistency from the President (and a critical eye from the press) would be greatly appreciated.

Sort of hard to be critical when you enter Atlasia in a Presidents last month, if you understand what I mean. I'll be much more critical (if justified) of PiT and the incoming congress.

By the way, Bgwah said he was proud of the increased activity, so it doesn't contradict his remarks about the newbies. However, you're right in that it has nothing to do with his work as President.
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« Reply #134 on: June 22, 2009, 01:21:45 pm »
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Vepres, first of all, this paper is excellent. Keep up the good work. Smiley

How do you think all of these controversial votes should be resolved, and who do you think should, and will become the next President?
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« Reply #135 on: June 22, 2009, 01:29:30 pm »
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Vepres, first of all, this paper is excellent. Keep up the good work. Smiley

How do you think all of these controversial votes should be resolved, and who do you think should, and will become the next President?

Personally, I think some in the JCP are trying to win through a technicality, and that PiT won. However, what matters is the legal opinion of the justices, should it get that far. Whatever they decide, the Sentinel will support (however, I personally may not). In the end, I think PiT will win, but we'll have to see.
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #136 on: June 22, 2009, 01:30:25 pm »

In the Midwest, GMantis and Lewis.

Lewis left ages ago, I'm in for the Midwest now.
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« Reply #137 on: June 22, 2009, 01:32:32 pm »
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Vepres, first of all, this paper is excellent. Keep up the good work. Smiley

How do you think all of these controversial votes should be resolved, and who do you think should, and will become the next President?

Personally, I think some in the JCP are trying to win through a technicality, and that PiT won. However, what matters is the legal opinion of the justices, should it get that far. Whatever they decide, the Sentinel will support (however, I personally may not). In the end, I think PiT will win, but we'll have to see.

Electoral laws are not technicalities.
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« Reply #138 on: June 22, 2009, 01:43:25 pm »
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Vepres, first of all, this paper is excellent. Keep up the good work. Smiley

How do you think all of these controversial votes should be resolved, and who do you think should, and will become the next President?

Personally, I think some in the JCP are trying to win through a technicality, and that PiT won. However, what matters is the legal opinion of the justices, should it get that far. Whatever they decide, the Sentinel will support (however, I personally may not). In the end, I think PiT will win, but we'll have to see.

Electoral laws are not technicalities.

Nobody doubted their registration until the election turned out to be close.
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« Reply #139 on: June 22, 2009, 01:44:48 pm »
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Vepres, first of all, this paper is excellent. Keep up the good work. Smiley

How do you think all of these controversial votes should be resolved, and who do you think should, and will become the next President?

Personally, I think some in the JCP are trying to win through a technicality, and that PiT won. However, what matters is the legal opinion of the justices, should it get that far. Whatever they decide, the Sentinel will support (however, I personally may not). In the end, I think PiT will win, but we'll have to see.

Electoral laws are not technicalities.

Nobody doubted their registration until the election turned out to be close.
Ditto
I also question if the same people would be fighting this hard for those votes not to count if the questionable votes had been for Leif, not PiT.
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« Reply #140 on: June 22, 2009, 01:46:50 pm »
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Anyway, does it matter if they registered before of after the 25 post achievement? In practical matters it doesn't, and legally, well we'll have to see.
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« Reply #141 on: June 22, 2009, 01:51:15 pm »
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Vepres, first of all, this paper is excellent. Keep up the good work. Smiley

How do you think all of these controversial votes should be resolved, and who do you think should, and will become the next President?

Personally, I think some in the JCP are trying to win through a technicality, and that PiT won. However, what matters is the legal opinion of the justices, should it get that far. Whatever they decide, the Sentinel will support (however, I personally may not). In the end, I think PiT will win, but we'll have to see.

Electoral laws are not technicalities.

Nobody doubted their registration until the election turned out to be close.
Ditto
I also question if the same people would be fighting this hard for those votes not to count if the questionable votes had been for Leif, not PiT.

I voted for PiT...and I am challenging the votes.
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« Reply #142 on: June 22, 2009, 01:51:31 pm »
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Who cares what motives are driving people to seek invalidation? We're talking about laws here...not simply preferences.
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« Reply #143 on: June 22, 2009, 01:54:09 pm »
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Vepres, first of all, this paper is excellent. Keep up the good work. Smiley

How do you think all of these controversial votes should be resolved, and who do you think should, and will become the next President?

Personally, I think some in the JCP are trying to win through a technicality, and that PiT won. However, what matters is the legal opinion of the justices, should it get that far. Whatever they decide, the Sentinel will support (however, I personally may not). In the end, I think PiT will win, but we'll have to see.

Electoral laws are not technicalities.

Nobody doubted their registration until the election turned out to be close.
Ditto
I also question if the same people would be fighting this hard for those votes not to count if the questionable votes had been for Leif, not PiT.

I voted for PiT...and I am challenging the votes.
And you are just about the only one, too.
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« Reply #144 on: June 22, 2009, 02:00:13 pm »
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Also, the voting booth says that you need to register before or on June 11th. electoraljew2 registered on June 11th, according to Earl's official registry, so I believe that he is elgiible to vote.

All well and good, but if that vote turns out to be crucial, don't be surprised if I lodge a case with the court seeking its invalidation.

As you can see, Jas clearly stated he would only care if the election was close.

We know you're in it for the right reasons Afleitch, but don't deny that all the other supporters do it cause they want Leif to win.

EDIT: Franzl, why did you have to ruin my argument. Tongue
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« Reply #145 on: June 22, 2009, 02:01:35 pm »
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Vepres, first of all, this paper is excellent. Keep up the good work. Smiley

How do you think all of these controversial votes should be resolved, and who do you think should, and will become the next President?

Personally, I think some in the JCP are trying to win through a technicality, and that PiT won. However, what matters is the legal opinion of the justices, should it get that far. Whatever they decide, the Sentinel will support (however, I personally may not). In the end, I think PiT will win, but we'll have to see.

Electoral laws are not technicalities.

Nobody doubted their registration until the election turned out to be close.
Ditto
I also question if the same people would be fighting this hard for those votes not to count if the questionable votes had been for Leif, not PiT.

I voted for PiT...and I am challenging the votes.
And you are just about the only one, too.


Wrong. I would also be willing to challenge these votes.
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« Reply #146 on: June 22, 2009, 02:04:21 pm »
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Vepres, first of all, this paper is excellent. Keep up the good work. Smiley

How do you think all of these controversial votes should be resolved, and who do you think should, and will become the next President?

Personally, I think some in the JCP are trying to win through a technicality, and that PiT won. However, what matters is the legal opinion of the justices, should it get that far. Whatever they decide, the Sentinel will support (however, I personally may not). In the end, I think PiT will win, but we'll have to see.

Electoral laws are not technicalities.

Nobody doubted their registration until the election turned out to be close.
Ditto
I also question if the same people would be fighting this hard for those votes not to count if the questionable votes had been for Leif, not PiT.

I voted for PiT...and I am challenging the votes.
And you are just about the only one, too.


Wrong. I would also be willing to challenge these votes.
^See bold^
What I'm saying, is that the one of the main reasons most of these "challengers" are challenging these votes is because they don't want PiT to win. Would they have challenged the votes if the votes were for Leif? Who knows, but I'm sure the chances would be a lot lower.
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« Reply #147 on: June 22, 2009, 02:06:02 pm »
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Vepres, first of all, this paper is excellent. Keep up the good work. Smiley

How do you think all of these controversial votes should be resolved, and who do you think should, and will become the next President?

Personally, I think some in the JCP are trying to win through a technicality, and that PiT won. However, what matters is the legal opinion of the justices, should it get that far. Whatever they decide, the Sentinel will support (however, I personally may not). In the end, I think PiT will win, but we'll have to see.

Electoral laws are not technicalities.

Nobody doubted their registration until the election turned out to be close.
Ditto
I also question if the same people would be fighting this hard for those votes not to count if the questionable votes had been for Leif, not PiT.

I voted for PiT...and I am challenging the votes.
And you are just about the only one, too.


Wrong. I would also be willing to challenge these votes.
^See bold^
What I'm saying, is that the one of the main reasons most of these "challengers" are challenging these votes is because they don't want PiT to win. Would they have challenged the votes if the votes were for Leif? Who knows, but I'm sure the chances would be a lot lower.

It doesn't matter why people want to challenge votes. If anyone has reason to believe that a vote was cast illegally...then I'd say it's their duty to challenge.
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« Reply #148 on: June 22, 2009, 02:07:32 pm »
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Vepres, first of all, this paper is excellent. Keep up the good work. Smiley

How do you think all of these controversial votes should be resolved, and who do you think should, and will become the next President?

Personally, I think some in the JCP are trying to win through a technicality, and that PiT won. However, what matters is the legal opinion of the justices, should it get that far. Whatever they decide, the Sentinel will support (however, I personally may not). In the end, I think PiT will win, but we'll have to see.

Electoral laws are not technicalities.

Nobody doubted their registration until the election turned out to be close.
Ditto
I also question if the same people would be fighting this hard for those votes not to count if the questionable votes had been for Leif, not PiT.

I voted for PiT...and I am challenging the votes.
And you are just about the only one, too.


Wrong. I would also be willing to challenge these votes.
^See bold^
What I'm saying, is that the one of the main reasons most of these "challengers" are challenging these votes is because they don't want PiT to win. Would they have challenged the votes if the votes were for Leif? Who knows, but I'm sure the chances would be a lot lower.

It doesn't matter why people want to challenge votes. If anyone has reason to believe that a vote was cast illegally...then I'd say it's their duty to challenge.
Agreed
But would they have challenged it if the votes were for PiT? Possibly, but I doubt it.
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« Reply #149 on: June 22, 2009, 02:12:27 pm »
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Vepres, first of all, this paper is excellent. Keep up the good work. Smiley

How do you think all of these controversial votes should be resolved, and who do you think should, and will become the next President?

Personally, I think some in the JCP are trying to win through a technicality, and that PiT won. However, what matters is the legal opinion of the justices, should it get that far. Whatever they decide, the Sentinel will support (however, I personally may not). In the end, I think PiT will win, but we'll have to see.

Electoral laws are not technicalities.

Nobody doubted their registration until the election turned out to be close.
Ditto
I also question if the same people would be fighting this hard for those votes not to count if the questionable votes had been for Leif, not PiT.

I voted for PiT...and I am challenging the votes.
And you are just about the only one, too.


Wrong. I would also be willing to challenge these votes.
^See bold^
What I'm saying, is that the one of the main reasons most of these "challengers" are challenging these votes is because they don't want PiT to win. Would they have challenged the votes if the votes were for Leif? Who knows, but I'm sure the chances would be a lot lower.

It doesn't matter why people want to challenge votes. If anyone has reason to believe that a vote was cast illegally...then I'd say it's their duty to challenge.
Agreed
But would they have challenged it if the votes were for PiT? Possibly, but I doubt it.

Jas would have challenged the votes. He likes to challenges elections and to sue the government.
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