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Question: See above
Yes (D)   -7 (8.6%)
No (D)   -21 (25.9%)
Yes (R)   -20 (24.7%)
No (R)   -2 (2.5%)
Yes (I/O)   -13 (16%)
No (I/O)   -18 (22.2%)
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Total Voters: 80

Author Topic: Is having "In God We Trust" on money, buildings, etc. constitutional?  (Read 15125 times)
Senator Ben
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« on: June 17, 2009, 04:38:15 pm »
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Yes (D)
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Quote from: The Mikado on March 18, 2011, 11:12:39 pm
Obama High's debate team:

"Now let me be clear...I...I...um...uh...now let me be clear.  I strongly condemn the affirmative in the strongest possible terms, and I am closely monitoring their arguments.  Let me be clear on this."
Rowan
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2009, 05:16:28 pm »
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If it's not it ought to be.
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2009, 05:21:22 pm »
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I dunno, I'd lean no.

Personally, I think it violates the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment...but the Supreme Court has ruled differently.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 05:26:54 pm by Senator Franzl »Logged
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To those I consider forum friends, it's been nice and I hope to keep contact in some form.

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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2009, 05:26:27 pm »
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Don't care. Biggest non-issue ever.
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Rowan
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2009, 05:28:33 pm »
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"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

No religion is being established and no one is stopped from exercising their religion. It's constitutional.
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2009, 05:39:13 pm »
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It's legal. And if it wasn't it should've been.
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2009, 05:41:42 pm »
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Quote from: RowanBrandon on June 17, 2009, 05:28:33 pm
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

No religion is being established and no one is stopped from exercising their religion. It's constitutional.

It's still a claim that a God exists....whatever God that might be. I think the establishment of any such being violates that clause.
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2009, 05:44:30 pm »
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Quote from: Senator Franzl on June 17, 2009, 05:41:42 pm
Quote from: RowanBrandon on June 17, 2009, 05:28:33 pm
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

No religion is being established and no one is stopped from exercising their religion. It's constitutional.

It's still a claim that a God exists....whatever God that might be. I think the establishment of any such being violates that clause.

But it doesn't say what specific God, so it's not preferencing one religion over the other. It's kind of a generic thing. But then again, I'm no constitutional scholar.
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2009, 05:52:50 pm »
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Quote from: RowanBrandon on June 17, 2009, 05:44:30 pm
Quote from: Senator Franzl on June 17, 2009, 05:41:42 pm
Quote from: RowanBrandon on June 17, 2009, 05:28:33 pm
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

No religion is being established and no one is stopped from exercising their religion. It's constitutional.

It's still a claim that a God exists....whatever God that might be. I think the establishment of any such being violates that clause.

But it doesn't say what specific God, so it's not preferencing one religion over the other. It's kind of a generic thing. But then again, I'm no constitutional scholar.

I'm no constituoinal scholar either, of course Wink

My problem there is that freedom of religion also means freedom from religion, in my opinion. The notion that a higher being (= God) exists seems to me to mean that the state recognizes that religion (whichever religion that may be) must be true in some form.
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2009, 05:54:52 pm »
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Quote from: Senator Franzl on June 17, 2009, 05:52:50 pm
My problem there is that freedom of religion also means freedom from religion, in my opinion. The notion that a higher being (= God) exists seems to me to mean that the state recognizes that religion (whichever religion that may be) must be true in some form.

I see it very much the same way. For a non-issue, this is one I find interesting after all these years.
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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2009, 07:37:43 pm »
Potentially sacrilegious to be profaning God by implying that God can be wielded as a talisman to back up our money.  What our money needs is a copy editor, so that it reads: "In Gold We Trust". Grin
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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2009, 05:43:17 am »
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Quote from: Earth on June 17, 2009, 05:54:52 pm
Quote from: Senator Franzl on June 17, 2009, 05:52:50 pm
My problem there is that freedom of religion also means freedom from religion, in my opinion. The notion that a higher being (= God) exists seems to me to mean that the state recognizes that religion (whichever religion that may be) must be true in some form.

I see it very much the same way. For a non-issue, this is one I find interesting after all these years.
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« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2009, 07:00:11 am »
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Quote from: memphis on June 17, 2009, 05:26:27 pm
Don't care. Biggest non-issue ever.
Exactly.  Who cares?  As long as the money spends I don't care if it says "In Big Foot We Trust".
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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2009, 11:49:45 am »
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Obviously as the court now stands it is 'constitutional', but with a different balance it might be 'unconstitutional'.  Certainly I would vote to 'interpret' this as unconstitutional.
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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2009, 02:33:32 pm »
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Absolutely.
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« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2009, 04:32:22 pm »
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Quote from: Deeds for Governor '09 on June 17, 2009, 04:38:15 pm
Yes (D)

This would still be your answer if the motto was "In Allah We Trust"... right? Because otherwise, you'd be a hypocrite.
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Senator Ben
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« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2009, 04:33:44 pm »
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Quote from: Rob on June 18, 2009, 04:32:22 pm
Quote from: Deeds for Governor '09 on June 17, 2009, 04:38:15 pm
Yes (D)

This would still be your answer if the motto was "In Allah We Trust"... right? Because otherwise, you'd be a hypocrite.

No, because Allah is a specific Deity, while "God" is a far more general term.
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Quote from: The Mikado on March 18, 2011, 11:12:39 pm
Obama High's debate team:

"Now let me be clear...I...I...um...uh...now let me be clear.  I strongly condemn the affirmative in the strongest possible terms, and I am closely monitoring their arguments.  Let me be clear on this."
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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2009, 04:34:30 pm »
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Quote from: Senator Franzl on June 17, 2009, 05:52:50 pm
My problem there is that freedom of religion also means freedom from religion, in my opinion. The notion that a higher being (= God) exists seems to me to mean that the state recognizes that religion (whichever religion that may be) must be true in some form.
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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2009, 05:37:01 pm »
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Quote from: dead0man on June 18, 2009, 07:00:11 am
Quote from: memphis on June 17, 2009, 05:26:27 pm
Don't care. Biggest non-issue ever.
Exactly.  Who cares?  As long as the money spends I don't care if it says "In Big Foot We Trust".

Even as an agnostic, I don't see why this matters.  I care more about whether teaching creationism in biology classes is constitutional or not.
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« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2009, 05:58:31 pm »
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I don't like these "Who cares?" responses. It may not be extremely important whether it's declared unconstitutional or not....but this question should be seriously debated on its merits, and not simply pushed to the side because of a lack of relevance.
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I've lost interest in the forum and I've wasted far too much time here.

To those I consider forum friends, it's been nice and I hope to keep contact in some form.

Cheers.
Rob
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« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2009, 09:08:34 pm »
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Quote from: Deeds for Governor '09 on June 18, 2009, 04:33:44 pm
Quote from: Rob on June 18, 2009, 04:32:22 pm
Quote from: Deeds for Governor '09 on June 17, 2009, 04:38:15 pm
Yes (D)

This would still be your answer if the motto was "In Allah We Trust"... right? Because otherwise, you'd be a hypocrite.

No, because Allah is a specific Deity, while "God" is a far more general term.

Really?

While the term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God, it is used by Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, in reference to "God".
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Here’s what Sarah Palin represents: being a fat fucking pig who pins “Country First” buttons on his man titties and chants “U-S-A! U-S-A!” at the top of his lungs while his kids live off credit cards and Saudis buy up all the mortgages in Kansas.
Senator Ben
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« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2009, 09:14:45 pm »
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Quote from: Rob on June 18, 2009, 09:08:34 pm
While the term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God, it is used by Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, in reference to "God".

However, because Allah is associated with just one faith, then it would be seen differently.
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Quote from: The Mikado on March 18, 2011, 11:12:39 pm
Obama High's debate team:

"Now let me be clear...I...I...um...uh...now let me be clear.  I strongly condemn the affirmative in the strongest possible terms, and I am closely monitoring their arguments.  Let me be clear on this."
Rob
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« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2009, 09:29:40 pm »
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... by people who don't know what they're talking about

anyway, this line of discussion is pointless, because you're seemingly unaware of the existence of atheists, agnostics, polytheists, and so on who don't subscribe to the existence of a Supreme Being.

I'm sure you don't care, anyway, but that just highlights your hypocrisy. Majority rule does not "constitutional" make.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 09:32:01 pm by Rob »Logged
Here’s what Sarah Palin represents: being a fat fucking pig who pins “Country First” buttons on his man titties and chants “U-S-A! U-S-A!” at the top of his lungs while his kids live off credit cards and Saudis buy up all the mortgages in Kansas.
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« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2009, 07:01:52 am »
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In the English-speaking United States, the term "Allah" is undeniably entangled with Islam. (Of course, you could always put the entire phrase in Arabic.)

Not sure what you mean by "hypocrisy." Did he claim to be categorically against government sloganeering that's inconsistent with any person's beliefs?

To answer the poll question, yes, it's constitutional. It's a bad idea, though.
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« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2009, 09:17:13 am »
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No (D)
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