Troops may be tried for using prostitutes

[opebo]

Here's an astonishingly unfair and unrealistic treatment of our troops:

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_tried_092204,00.html

Prostitution and armies have gone together throughout history.  Only the American military would be subjected to such puritanical nonsense.

You can die for your country but a little R. and R. is out of the question - might often the christian conservatives and feminist moralizers back home.

[A18]

They're in the military. When you're in the military, you do what you're told.

[opebo]

They're in the military. When you're in the military, you do what you're told.

Good lord man, this is the traditional meaning of R and R for decades!  Why on earth should this sort of thing be banned for men about to die?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

It just goes to show that Bush is the second coming of Wilson.  Wilson was shocked when during WW1, the French offered to make certain that our troops were supplied with clean prostitutes during R&R so as to keep down the rates of VD.

[opebo]

It just goes to show that Bush is the second coming of Wilson.  Wilson was shocked when during WW1, the French offered to make certain that our troops were supplied with clean prostitutes during R&R so as to keep down the rates of VD.

It is sad to say American's ridiculous prudery hasn't declined in 90 years!  If anything it has grown.  No wonder the French (and all sexually reasonable peoples) still make fun of us.

[Vincent]

From the article:

"Gen. Leon J. LaPorte, commander of the 37,000 U.S. troops in South Korea, said another initiative started on the peninsula has been to "make on-base military life a more desirable experience, and attempt to diminish the seductive appeal of many of the less wholesome off-duty pursuits."

That effort includes offering expanded evening and weekend education programs, band concerts, late-night sports leagues and expanded chaplains' activities."


Yep. That will take care of everything.

[minionofmidas]

unrealistic

doesn't even begin to describe it.

[WMS]

Here's something that may help explain this. And this author is also looking a bit askance at it as well. Basically, this issue is coming up because the damned Russian gangs are running slavery rings to supply prostitutes, and the Russians are very, very, brutal to the women they kidnap or fool into slavery, and some American troops are using these enslaved women.

Prostitution per se is not evil. But if the women are basically enslaved, then it is evil.

From www.strategypage.com

"September 29, 2004: The U.S. Department of Defense is considering making it illegal for troops to buy sex from prostitutes. On the face of it, this sounds ludicrous. As long as there have been soldiers, there has been a lot of sex involved. But the Pentagon is having serious public relations problems with media stories of troops consorting with women coerced into prostitution. In fact, there is more of that going on now. But blame can be placed mainly on the collapse of the Soviet Union, and growing prosperity in foreign countries where American troops are stationed.

South Korea, for example, was long regarded as a sexual playground for young troops. When South Korea was poor, even the relatively low pay of American soldiers enabled substantial amounts of money to go to “entertainment” with the local girls. Even when on field exercise in some remote part of the country, a few girls would often come out of an isolated village to make, for them, some big money, by spending a few hours with the GIs. But as South Korea became more prosperous, South Korean girls were able to get better paying jobs. When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, there was nothing to prevent ambitious Russian girls to come to South Korea (and other places where there were GIs, like Western Europe, Japan and the Persian Gulf) and make some money by replacing the South Korean prostitutes now working in factories and offices (or catering to the more lucrative prostitution business with Korean men.). Many girls from the Philippines also went to South Korea, although most of them did not work as prostitutes. Filipinas were favored as hostesses because they spoke passable English. In fact, many of the Russian and Filipino girls working in the red light districts were not prostitutes, but dancers or hostesses. The bars in the red light district made most of their money from selling beer and booze, not sex. But there was a lot of sex, and in many parts of South Korea, local, or Russian, gangsters held prostitutes in virtual slavery. This had been rare in the past, and the police eventually caught up with anyone crossing the line into slavery. Treating the women badly was not good for business in the long run. The Russian and Korean gangsters, unlike the men and women running the bars and brothels, did not think in the long term.

While there were always young women who were badly exploited, most of them knew exactly what they were getting into. Information on how the sex business worked in South Korean, or other nations’, red light districts, spread fast. But the Russian mobsters were a particularly brutal lot, and when they were heavy handed, it made for great headlines. This has been the case all over the world, from East Asia, to the Persian Gulf to Western Europe and North America. This Summer, for example, South Korea sought to expel all Russian women who were working as prostitutes. But many of the more enterprising girls simply went underground or otherwise stayed in business.

This is the problem the military will have with trying to outlaw prostitution. The boys and girls will always find each other. In some locations, where prostitution has been outlawed, the horny troops and enterprising women work out routines that avoid prosecution, but still allow the business to be done. Over the centuries, commanders have tried to at least control the prostitution, if only to prevent the activity from reducing the combat ability of the troops. However, dealing with the prostitution problem was never considered a major chore. It was on the same level with too much drunkenness, and not as serious a problem as poor training or living conditions for the troops. Moreover, many nations take a dim view of prostitution (while others do not), and even admitting that the troops are paying for sex while off duty can do damage to a commanders career. In light of that, American military commanders are making these usual moves, and outlawing prostitution. After a while (months, years), when it becomes obvious that this solution is causing more problems than it is solving, the rules will be changed again. In the meantime, the troops will spend a lot of time, energy and money getting around the new regulations. "

This is a topic under "Leadership" in the HTMW section.

[opebo]

Here's something that may help explain this. And this author is also looking a bit askance at it as well. Basically, this issue is coming up because the damned Russian gangs are running slavery rings to supply prostitutes, and the Russians are very, very, brutal to the women they kidnap or fool into slavery, and some American troops are using these enslaved women.

Prostitution per se is not evil. But if the women are basically enslaved, then it is evil.

From www.strategypage.com

"September 29, 2004: The U.S. Department of Defense is considering making it illegal for troops to buy sex from prostitutes. On the face of it, this sounds ludicrous. As long as there have been soldiers, there has been a lot of sex involved. But the Pentagon is having serious public relations problems with media stories of troops consorting with women coerced into prostitution. In fact, there is more of that going on now. But blame can be placed mainly on the collapse of the Soviet Union, and growing prosperity in foreign countries where American troops are stationed.

South Korea, for example, was long regarded as a sexual playground for young troops. When South Korea was poor, even the relatively low pay of American soldiers enabled substantial amounts of money to go to “entertainment” with the local girls. Even when on field exercise in some remote part of the country, a few girls would often come out of an isolated village to make, for them, some big money, by spending a few hours with the GIs. But as South Korea became more prosperous, South Korean girls were able to get better paying jobs. When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, there was nothing to prevent ambitious Russian girls to come to South Korea (and other places where there were GIs, like Western Europe, Japan and the Persian Gulf) and make some money by replacing the South Korean prostitutes now working in factories and offices (or catering to the more lucrative prostitution business with Korean men.). Many girls from the Philippines also went to South Korea, although most of them did not work as prostitutes. Filipinas were favored as hostesses because they spoke passable English. In fact, many of the Russian and Filipino girls working in the red light districts were not prostitutes, but dancers or hostesses. The bars in the red light district made most of their money from selling beer and booze, not sex. But there was a lot of sex, and in many parts of South Korea, local, or Russian, gangsters held prostitutes in virtual slavery. This had been rare in the past, and the police eventually caught up with anyone crossing the line into slavery. Treating the women badly was not good for business in the long run. The Russian and Korean gangsters, unlike the men and women running the bars and brothels, did not think in the long term.

While there were always young women who were badly exploited, most of them knew exactly what they were getting into. Information on how the sex business worked in South Korean, or other nations’, red light districts, spread fast. But the Russian mobsters were a particularly brutal lot, and when they were heavy handed, it made for great headlines. This has been the case all over the world, from East Asia, to the Persian Gulf to Western Europe and North America. This Summer, for example, South Korea sought to expel all Russian women who were working as prostitutes. But many of the more enterprising girls simply went underground or otherwise stayed in business.

This is the problem the military will have with trying to outlaw prostitution. The boys and girls will always find each other. In some locations, where prostitution has been outlawed, the horny troops and enterprising women work out routines that avoid prosecution, but still allow the business to be done. Over the centuries, commanders have tried to at least control the prostitution, if only to prevent the activity from reducing the combat ability of the troops. However, dealing with the prostitution problem was never considered a major chore. It was on the same level with too much drunkenness, and not as serious a problem as poor training or living conditions for the troops. Moreover, many nations take a dim view of prostitution (while others do not), and even admitting that the troops are paying for sex while off duty can do damage to a commanders career. In light of that, American military commanders are making these usual moves, and outlawing prostitution. After a while (months, years), when it becomes obvious that this solution is causing more problems than it is solving, the rules will be changed again. In the meantime, the troops will spend a lot of time, energy and money getting around the new regulations. "

This is a topic under "Leadership" in the HTMW section.

This 'enslavement' claim is utterly false - it is simply a convenient fabrication of puritans who cannot imagine that many women *choose* prostitution because it is by far the best job availabe.  In reality it is easy, well paid, and certainly more fun than working in a factory.  This kind of nonsensical claim is made by people who think that having sex is the worst thing that could happen to any woman.

Those of us who have observed this industry first hand can confirm - those working in it are extremely eager and motivated in their participation.  A better description of them would be hard-headed businesswomen, not sex slaves.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Unfortunately there are those who are in the business for reasons beyond the purely economic. The idea of the nymphomaniac who is in it as a way to make money from what they like doing in the first place is largely a nyth.  That said, in general, the working conditions for prostitutes is worsened by making prostitution a crime.  After all, contract law doesn't apply since the courts can't be used to enforce a contract concerning illegal commerce, so protection rackets, extortion and slave labor all occur.  Prostitution is hardly something that should be encouraged, but making it illegal only makes the ills attributatble to the profession worse, not better.

[opebo]

Unfortunately there are those who are in the business for reasons beyond the purely economic. The idea of the nymphomaniac who is in it as a way to make money from what they like doing in the first place is largely a nyth.  That said, in general, the working conditions for prostitutes is worsened by making prostitution a crime.  After all, contract law doesn't apply since the courts can't be used to enforce a contract concerning illegal commerce, so protection rackets, extortion and slave labor all occur.  Prostitution is hardly something that should be encouraged, but making it illegal only makes the ills attributatble to the profession worse, not better.

I never said anything about the women enjoying the sex - while that may occur rarely, it is not at all part of the motivation for choosing the profession.  When I said 'fun' I meant that the working conditions are varied, and mostly involve hanging out, eating and drinking, talking, and yes, a little bit of sex.   Certainly relatively more pleasant than slaving away in some factory - or working at Walmart.

[??????????]

While I would not prosecute troops for getting a "dutch treat". I as a commanding officer would certainly try and discourage it due to the risks of STDs and the like. But I feel soldiers deserve their R&R and if they want to risk their health that's their foolishness.

[opebo]

While I would not prosecute troops for getting a "dutch treat". I as a commanding officer would certainly try and discourage it due to the risks of STDs and the like. But I feel soldiers deserve their R&R and if they want to risk their health that's their foolishness.

You're worried about the remote possibility of an STD for guys who're about to be slaughtered on the battlefield?

[??????????]

While I would not prosecute troops for getting a "dutch treat". I as a commanding officer would certainly try and discourage it due to the risks of STDs and the like. But I feel soldiers deserve their R&R and if they want to risk their health that's their foolishness.

You're worried about the remote possibility of an STD for guys who're about to be slaughtered on the battlefield?

STDs are not remote in a third world country such as South Korea.

[opebo]

While I would not prosecute troops for getting a "dutch treat". I as a commanding officer would certainly try and discourage it due to the risks of STDs and the like. But I feel soldiers deserve their R&R and if they want to risk their health that's their foolishness.

You're worried about the remote possibility of an STD for guys who're about to be slaughtered on the battlefield?

STDs are not remote in a third world country such as South Korea.

South Korea is not third world at all, and STDs are far more rampant amoung the American lower classes than amoung Koreans.

[??????????]

While I would not prosecute troops for getting a "dutch treat". I as a commanding officer would certainly try and discourage it due to the risks of STDs and the like. But I feel soldiers deserve their R&R and if they want to risk their health that's their foolishness.

You're worried about the remote possibility of an STD for guys who're about to be slaughtered on the battlefield?

STDs are not remote in a third world country such as South Korea.

South Korea is not third world at all, and STDs are far more rampant amoung the American lower classes than amoung Koreans.

From former soldiers I know South Korea was described to me that it was filthy, it stank and the people were poor.

[ATFFL]

While I would not prosecute troops for getting a "dutch treat". I as a commanding officer would certainly try and discourage it due to the risks of STDs and the like. But I feel soldiers deserve their R&R and if they want to risk their health that's their foolishness.

You're worried about the remote possibility of an STD for guys who're about to be slaughtered on the battlefield?

STDs are not remote in a third world country such as South Korea.

South Korea is not third world at all, and STDs are far more rampant amoung the American lower classes than amoung Koreans.

From former soldiers I know South Korea was described to me that it was filthy, it stank and the people were poor.

Depends on the region.  Overall it is a second world country, with some backwater areas.

[opebo]

While I would not prosecute troops for getting a "dutch treat". I as a commanding officer would certainly try and discourage it due to the risks of STDs and the like. But I feel soldiers deserve their R&R and if they want to risk their health that's their foolishness.

You're worried about the remote possibility of an STD for guys who're about to be slaughtered on the battlefield?

STDs are not remote in a third world country such as South Korea.

South Korea is not third world at all, and STDs are far more rampant amoung the American lower classes than amoung Koreans.

From former soldiers I know South Korea was described to me that it was filthy, it stank and the people were poor.

What, in the 1950's?  Your description fits just as well great swathes of the United States.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

It just goes to show that Bush is the second coming of Wilson.  Wilson was shocked when during WW1, the French offered to make certain that our troops were supplied with clean prostitutes during R&R so as to keep down the rates of VD.

It is sad to say American's ridiculous prudery hasn't declined in 90 years!  If anything it has grown.  No wonder the French (and all sexually reasonable peoples) still make fun of us.

Opebo has some good things to say. 

I agree, I think minus the Arab nations, we are the most sexually immature people on the face of the planet. 

Soldiers....in trouble for getting some.  Sad.  REAL sad. 

[WMS]

[cut for space]

This 'enslavement' claim is utterly false - it is simply a convenient fabrication of puritans who cannot imagine that many women *choose* prostitution because it is by far the best job availabe.  In reality it is easy, well paid, and certainly more fun than working in a factory.  This kind of nonsensical claim is made by people who think that having sex is the worst thing that could happen to any woman.

Those of us who have observed this industry first hand can confirm - those working in it are extremely eager and motivated in their participation.  A better description of them would be hard-headed businesswomen, not sex slaves.

I suggest you look at what I posted again, Opebo - it doesn't claim that all prostitutes are enslaved, but that some are, and treated quite badly, and THAT is what sparked this - that some of these enslaved, brutalized women were being used by U.S. troops in Kosovo/Bosnia/Macedonia.

You appear to have ignored that much of what I posted *agreed* with what you said. Get off your anti-religious horse for a second - neither I nor strategypage.com think all prostitution is evil. And note that strategypage - RUN by ex-military types, BTW - is saying that this won't work. But to say that there are no women being forced into prostitution is also incorrect.

[opebo]

I suggest you look at what I posted again, Opebo - it doesn't claim that all prostitutes are enslaved, but that some are, and treated quite badly, and THAT is what sparked this - that some of these enslaved, brutalized women were being used by U.S. troops in Kosovo/Bosnia/Macedonia.

You appear to have ignored that much of what I posted *agreed* with what you said. Get off your anti-religious horse for a second - neither I nor strategypage.com think all prostitution is evil. And note that strategypage - RUN by ex-military types, BTW - is saying that this won't work. But to say that there are no women being forced into prostitution is also incorrect.

Sorry if I misunderstood your post.  However I would definitely take the position that a vital industry should not be closed down or made off limits just because a tiny proportion of it is run poorly. 

[WMS]

I suggest you look at what I posted again, Opebo - it doesn't claim that all prostitutes are enslaved, but that some are, and treated quite badly, and THAT is what sparked this - that some of these enslaved, brutalized women were being used by U.S. troops in Kosovo/Bosnia/Macedonia.

You appear to have ignored that much of what I posted *agreed* with what you said. Get off your anti-religious horse for a second - neither I nor strategypage.com think all prostitution is evil. And note that strategypage - RUN by ex-military types, BTW - is saying that this won't work. But to say that there are no women being forced into prostitution is also incorrect.

Sorry if I misunderstood your post.  However I would definitely take the position that a vital industry should not be closed down or made off limits just because a tiny proportion of it is run poorly. 

That's OK. I'm somewhat moralistic, but not THAT much. I would definitely regulate it...maybe Nevada-style, with no pimps, protections for the women, and have prositution confined to certain commercial (HA!) districts. That last bit would both remove it from residential areas and make it easier for those so inclined to use it. And jailing the women involved, as under current law, is kind of like punishing the victim...

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

South Korea is far from a third world country, yeah there are some backwater areas but there are in the US too. Seoul is a bustling economic powerhouse.