Sarkozy = Idiot

[Keystone Phil]

He wants to officially ban burqas now.

I don't like burqas either, Nick, but enough with this nonsense of burqas will "not be welcome" in your country because you're "Pro woman."

[phk]

Sarkozy is a freedom fighter for this. But hijabs and Islamic dress codes should be banned and criminalized in general.

[Franzl]

I understand the sentiment...but it's a terrible idea.

[Keystone Phil]

Sarkozy is a freedom fighter for this.

Yeah, a real big FF. 

What about the women who actually want to wear a burqa?

[Tender Branson]

Sarkozy should better confront the root of this evil first and stop the entering of these people in the first place. How about nuking Afghanistan or Pakistan ? Less fundies, less burkas.

I agree with Phil on this. Freedom of clothing all the way !

[phk]

Sarkozy is a freedom fighter for this.

Yeah, a real big FF. 

What about the women who actually want to wear a burqa?

Shouldn't be allowed into Europe.

[Keystone Phil]

Sarkozy is a freedom fighter for this.

Yeah, a real big FF. 

What about the women who actually want to wear a burqa?

Shouldn't be allowed into Europe.

Yeah, there's a healthy dose of freedom for you.

[Franzl]

Neoconservatives have always loved freedom

[GMantis]

He wants to officially ban burqas now.

I don't like burqas either, Nick, but enough with this nonsense of burqas will "not be welcome" in your country because you're "Pro woman."

If you don't ban burqas, they will be imposed on Islamic women by their relatives and by community pressure. This greatly exacerbate the alienation and isolation of Muslims from the native population, contributing to the lack of integration and ethnic tensions. Muslims men often act abusive against non-muslim women because they're not covered. Would this happen to such extent if headscarves were banned.
This is a step in the right direction. In my opinion, Islamic clothing should be restricted in the West. If the Muslims don't like it, tough for them. It's not if most Islamic countries permit non-Muslims permit to dress like they want.

[Keystone Phil]

Neoconservatives have always loved freedom

...

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

If you don't ban burqas, they will be imposed on Islamic women by their relatives and by community pressure. This greatly exacerbate the alienation and isolation of Muslims from the native population, contributing to the lack of integration and ethnic tensions. Muslims men often act abusive against non-muslim women because they're not covered. Would this happen to such extent if headscarves were banned.

Again, what about women who really want to wear burqas?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Great reasoning.

 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

And that doesn't suddenly make this right.

[Franzl]

Neoconservatives have always loved freedom

...

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That was directed at phknrocket. You know...the kind of guy that goes on and on about freedom in the West and then tries to limit personal freedom with stuff like this.

[Keystone Phil]

Neoconservatives have always loved freedom

...

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That was directed at phknrocket. You know...the kind of guy that goes on and on about freedom in the West and then tries to limit personal freedom with stuff like this.

Oh, ok. I was going to say, "Why the hell is that directed at me?" 

[phk]

Neoconservatives have always loved freedom

Iv never claimed to be neocon but as a former Muslim. I do support Sarko.

[Franzl]

Neoconservatives have always loved freedom

Iv never claimed to be neocon but as a former Muslim. I do support Sarko.

I'm calling you a neocon...

[phk]

Neoconservatives have always loved freedom

Iv never claimed to be neocon but as a former Muslim. I do support Sarko.

I'm calling you a neocon...

Nice and I'll call you a vile child rapist.

[GMantis]

If you don't ban burqas, they will be imposed on Islamic women by their relatives and by community pressure. This greatly exacerbate the alienation and isolation of Muslims from the native population, contributing to the lack of integration and ethnic tensions. Muslims men often act abusive against non-muslim women because they're not covered. Would this happen to such extent if headscarves were banned.

Again, what about women who really want to wear burqas?

With the typical structure of the Islamic family and with the isolation and strong group pressure in their communities, it's virtually impossible to tell them apart from those who have burqas forced upon them. So it's better to be on the safe side.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Great reasoning.

 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

And that doesn't suddenly make this right.

I'm just saying that they have little grounds from complaining, considering the very limited rights minorities have in most of their home countries. Also if their clothing contributes to their isolation and to hostility with the majority, which has very negative social effects, the public good should take priority over the wishes of some Muslims to impose their way of life in another country.

[Keystone Phil]

With the typical structure of the Islamic family and with the isolation and strong group pressure in their communities, it's virtually impossible to tell them apart from those who have burqas forced upon them. So it's better to be on the safe side.

The "safe side" just happens to be your personal opinion and that's not fair to any Muslim woman.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

But I'm not talking about foreign governments; I'm talking about the Muslims in France rightfully complaining.

 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

What?

So now we have to outlaw anything that adds to "hostility with the majority?" This cannot be serious.

I find this absolutely mind boggling that you, of all people, are now going to talk about "the public good" (which really isn't affected by burqa wearing) vs. minority interests. You are literally defending xenophobia in the law.

Imagine if I complained about a minority group "imposing their way of life" on people in my country! Imagine if I just complained about it and now compare it to someone like yourself who wants to outlaw their customs.

[GMantis]

With the typical structure of the Islamic family and with the isolation and strong group pressure in their communities, it's virtually impossible to tell them apart from those who have burqas forced upon them. So it's better to be on the safe side.

The "safe side" just happens to be your personal opinion and that's not fair to any Muslim woman.

Are you denying the fact that many women are forced to wear burqas, sometimes even non-Muslims in predominantly Muslim areas?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

But I'm not talking about foreign governments; I'm talking about the Muslims in France rightfully complaining.

Actually, often the same governments that give little rights to minorities are the most vocal protesters and I would say that for those countries' citizens to protest is hypocritical.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

What?

So now we have to outlaw anything that adds to "hostility with the majority?" This cannot be serious.

I find this absolutely mind boggling that you, of all people, are now going to talk about "the public good" (which really isn't affected by burqa wearing) vs. minority interests. You are literally defending xenophobia in the law.

Imagine if I complained about a minority group "imposing their way of life" on people in my country! Imagine if I just complained about it and now compare it to someone like yourself who wants to outlaw their customs.

Have I ever defended the anti-social expressions of a minority? The wearing of burqas is antisocial and threatening to the public good. It places pressure on other women to wear burqas, increases disempowerment of the women who wear them, isolate Muslims from the wider community and generate tension and conflict.
There is a reasonable difference between a minority expressing a culture and a minority which seeks to dominate or at least strongly influence the dominant culture. The wearing of burqas in Western countries crosses that line, in my opinion.
By the way, Italy has actually banned the wearing of burqas, since 2005:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6557252.ece
Haven't seen you protesting that, though.

[Keystone Phil]

Are you denying the fact that many women are forced to wear burqas, sometimes even non-Muslims in predominantly Muslim areas?

I'm not denying that but I don't think they should be outlawed when a good amount of Muslims want to wear them.

If a non-Muslim in France is being forced to wear one, they can request legal action.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I totally agree. That's not the debate here.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So now anything you deem "anti-social" has to be outlawed? Uh...

I have another idea: let's ban "housewives."

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Wearing a burqa is strongly dominating? Wearing a burqa in a Western country "crosses that line" only because you say so.

Next time, don't complain when xenophobic nationalists from Western Europe want to write laws that keep out a bunch of poor, uneducated, dirty Eastern Europeans from entering their country. They're just prevent "strong influence" on their dominant culture, after all. 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

That's because I never knew about it. That's disgusting. I don't know why some people insist on throwing these types of situations in my face. You can call me a lot of things but I'm not a hypocrite. Do you really expect me to say that it's ok that Italy does this? I just never knew it happened.

[Хahar 🤔]

If you don't ban burqas, they will be imposed on Islamic women by their relatives and by community pressure. This greatly exacerbate the alienation and isolation of Muslims from the native population, contributing to the lack of integration and ethnic tensions. Muslims men often act abusive against non-muslim women because they're not covered. Would this happen to such extent if headscarves were banned.

Again, what about women who really want to wear burqas?

With the typical structure of the Islamic family and with the isolation and strong group pressure in their communities, it's virtually impossible to tell them apart from those who have burqas forced upon them. So it's better to be on the safe side.

I think I have a vague idea of where you're coming from, but understand that you're in Bulgaria.

[Sbane]

With the typical structure of the Islamic family and with the isolation and strong group pressure in their communities, it's virtually impossible to tell them apart from those who have burqas forced upon them. So it's better to be on the safe side.

The "safe side" just happens to be your personal opinion and that's not fair to any Muslim woman.

Are you denying the fact that many women are forced to wear burqas, sometimes even non-Muslims in predominantly Muslim areas?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

But I'm not talking about foreign governments; I'm talking about the Muslims in France rightfully complaining.

Actually, often the same governments that give little rights to minorities are the most vocal protesters and I would say that for those countries' citizens to protest is hypocritical.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

What?

So now we have to outlaw anything that adds to "hostility with the majority?" This cannot be serious.

I find this absolutely mind boggling that you, of all people, are now going to talk about "the public good" (which really isn't affected by burqa wearing) vs. minority interests. You are literally defending xenophobia in the law.

Imagine if I complained about a minority group "imposing their way of life" on people in my country! Imagine if I just complained about it and now compare it to someone like yourself who wants to outlaw their customs.

Have I ever defended the anti-social expressions of a minority? The wearing of burqas is antisocial and threatening to the public good. It places pressure on other women to wear burqas, increases disempowerment of the women who wear them, isolate Muslims from the wider community and generate tension and conflict.
There is a reasonable difference between a minority expressing a culture and a minority which seeks to dominate or at least strongly influence the dominant culture. The wearing of burqas in Western countries crosses that line, in my opinion.
By the way, Italy has actually banned the wearing of burqas, since 2005:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6557252.ece
Haven't seen you protesting that, though.

First of all your correct observation that non muslims are made to wear burqas in places like Saudi Arabia is not relevant in the west. You seriously think some muslims, who are heavily in the minority, are going to force some westerner (frenchwoman in this case) to wear a burqa? Uhh....wow.

Also how is a burqa antisocial? I personally don't like them one bit, but if a woman wants to wear it she should be able to. If she is being forced to wear one she would have a right to complain and would be heard in the west.

[GMantis]

Are you denying the fact that many women are forced to wear burqas, sometimes even non-Muslims in predominantly Muslim areas?

I'm not denying that but I don't think they should be outlawed when a good amount of Muslims want to wear them.

If a non-Muslim in France is being forced to wear one, they can request legal action.

Did you read the part about the Muslim family structure or the strong group pressure within their communities? I don't think that many would complain.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So now anything you deem "anti-social" has to be outlawed? Uh...

I have another idea: let's ban "housewives."

What do housewives have to do with this?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Wearing a burqa is strongly dominating? Wearing a burqa in a Western country "crosses that line" only because you say so.

Next time, don't complain when xenophobic nationalists from Western Europe want to write laws that keep out a bunch of poor, uneducated, dirty Eastern Europeans from entering their country. They're just prevent "strong influence" on their dominant culture, after all. 

With some exceptions, Eastern European immigrants to Western Europe seek to integrate into society and don't attempt to behave as if they're ruling the countriesthey're immigrating into. I would say they integrate too well, considering their rapid assimilation rate.
The problem with the Muslim immigrants is not that they're poor and uneducated, but their attitude that they're superior over non-Muslims (dhimmis) and that the latter should accommodate them. I'm not saying that all think like that, but a significant part does and the attitude of many European governments doesn't help.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

That's because I never knew about it. That's disgusting. I don't know why some people insist on throwing these types of situations in my face. You can call me a lot of things but I'm not a hypocrite. Do you really expect me to say that it's ok that Italy does this? I just never knew it happened.

Good for you, but here's another reason why burqas should be banned.

[GMantis]

First of all your correct observation that non muslims are made to wear burqas in places like Saudi Arabia is not relevant in the west. You seriously think some muslims, who are heavily in the minority, are going to force some westerner (frenchwoman in this case) to wear a burqa? Uhh....wow.

Also how is a burqa antisocial? I personally don't like them one bit, but if a woman wants to wear it she should be able to. If she is being forced to wear one she would have a right to complain and would be heard in the west.

There have been some cases, where non-women living in heavily Muslim areas to at least cover their heads to avoid constant abuse.

If you don't ban burqas, they will be imposed on Islamic women by their relatives and by community pressure. This greatly exacerbate the alienation and isolation of Muslims from the native population, contributing to the lack of integration and ethnic tensions. Muslims men often act abusive against non-muslim women because they're not covered. Would this happen to such extent if headscarves were banned.

Again, what about women who really want to wear burqas?

With the typical structure of the Islamic family and with the isolation and strong group pressure in their communities, it's virtually impossible to tell them apart from those who have burqas forced upon them. So it's better to be on the safe side.

I think I have a vague idea of where you're coming from, but understand that you're in Bulgaria.

I don't understand you. What do you mean by that?

[Keystone Phil]

What do housewives have to do with this?

Let's ban subservience, right?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So they're not allowed to practice what they believe because of this alleged superiority? We have to straighten them out, right?

[GMantis]

What do housewives have to do with this?

Let's ban subservience, right?

Being a housewive is being subservant? Didn't know you were a feminist, Phil.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So they're not allowed to practice what they believe because of this alleged superiority? We have to straighten them out, right?

It's not a good idea for the minority to think that they can order around the majority. It inevitably leads to conflict and negative consequences for all involved. I would say that this is pretty obvious.