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Author Topic: A few thoughts from your PO; AMENDMENTS AT VOTE  (Read 25237 times)
Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #100 on: July 02, 2009, 01:32:13 am »
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Look, I really don't care whether we have a House of Reps, a CoG, or whatever. My goal is to see what has the best, most productive ripple affect and implement it. I wouldn't mind reducing the number of nationally elected seats to make those more competitive, but we need to find a way to induce regional reform. I don't believe legislatures are inherently better than initiatives, but I believe active governors are necessary. So how can we make races for governor more competitive? That's really the biggest question?

EDIT: I would even support a sort of rotating Speakership, where one Governor at a time heads the Senate. We could implement that by coinciding the changes with the elections to regional seats and leave that seat "vacant" while giving the Governor full voting rights for his term. Does that work for anyone?

This a fundamentle disagreement we have on whether the feds can force or compel a region to reform, or whether we are at there mercy. Personally I think its the latter.
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« Reply #101 on: July 02, 2009, 01:32:59 am »
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And I don't see an elected legislature succeeding in Pacific. Our universal Legislature has problems to work. Only the Governor, the President, me and Marokai are participing and we all have an higher office.
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« Reply #102 on: July 02, 2009, 01:35:45 am »
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But we have been watching for months. The game is dead. We need reform. Now what?

I agree, let each region choose initiative or legislature. But we must promote gubernatorial activity. And I think governors should be more active in shaping federal policy. The game is small enough.

What about my rotating speakership idea? It's a rough sketch, but it's a possible start for something.

I think when I say compel it's the wrong word. I don't want to force anything on the regions. I simply want to use federal reform to spur regional reform. I think the federal Constitution has a lot to do with how the regions behave. I think we can have minimal changes to the federal government, something even that involves the regions more than they are now in influencing federal policy, that can lead people to consider the regions more important and want to run for governor more.
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« Reply #103 on: July 02, 2009, 10:35:41 am »
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@Vepres, we cannot force parties to conduct primaries, so regardless of how effective that would be, we can't initiate that by amending the Constitution.

I was directing that more at the party leaders. I realize you can't force them to do anything.
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« Reply #104 on: July 02, 2009, 05:15:53 pm »
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I support the proposal to eliminate regional Senate seats, and replace them with a Council of Governors.  So we would have two houses of five members each.  I would like to see this proposal drafted, passed by this Convention, and presented to the Senate as an amendment.

I also believe Congress should re-draw the regions, perhaps annually, based on a "census" provided by the Department of Forum Affairs.  Gerrymandering could of course be a problem, but hey, thats how it is in the real world!
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« Reply #105 on: July 02, 2009, 05:58:52 pm »
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I do not quite get the idea behind this "Council of Governors". It almost seems as though it would be the Atlasian equivalent of the NGA.
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« Reply #106 on: July 02, 2009, 06:09:25 pm »
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I do not quite get the idea behind this "Council of Governors". It almost seems as though it would be the Atlasian equivalent of the NGA.

Basically it will combine the role of Governor and Senator and create a Second chamber with five people in it that can pass or kill legislation passed by the 5 At-large Senators. The Regional Senate seats would be removed.

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« Reply #107 on: July 02, 2009, 06:17:47 pm »
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I do not quite get the idea behind this "Council of Governors". It almost seems as though it would be the Atlasian equivalent of the NGA.

Basically it will combine the role of Governor and Senator and create a Second chamber with five people in it that can pass or kill legislation passed by the 5 At-large Senators. The Regional Senate seats would be removed.



I oppose that idea, of course.
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« Reply #108 on: July 02, 2009, 06:31:03 pm »
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If they're kept, regions should be redrawn once and left alone for a while. Regions are not congressional districts.
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« Reply #109 on: July 02, 2009, 06:35:11 pm »
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If they're kept, regions should be redrawn once and left alone for a while. Regions are not congressional districts.
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« Reply #110 on: July 02, 2009, 06:37:50 pm »
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A million thanks for your very insightful contributions, officepark.
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« Reply #111 on: July 02, 2009, 06:43:24 pm »
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Why does this Council of Governors idea seem to pop up from time to time? I genuinely cannot think of anything more grotesque than 'doubling' up offices and effectively abolishing 5 senators/offices to impliment it. 
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« Reply #112 on: July 02, 2009, 06:53:17 pm »
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Why does this Council of Governors idea seem to pop up from time to time? I genuinely cannot think of anything more grotesque than 'doubling' up offices and effectively abolishing 5 senators/offices to impliment it. 

The explanation offered by NCYankee makes it seem like it would allow dual office holding (even if there is only one office de jure). That is part of the reason why the idea has my opposition.
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« Reply #113 on: July 02, 2009, 06:55:59 pm »
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I do not quite get the idea behind this "Council of Governors". It almost seems as though it would be the Atlasian equivalent of the NGA.

Basically it will combine the role of Governor and Senator and create a Second chamber with five people in it that can pass or kill legislation passed by the 5 At-large Senators. The Regional Senate seats would be removed.



I oppose that idea, of course.

As do I.

Why does this Council of Governors idea seem to pop up from time to time? I genuinely cannot think of anything more grotesque than 'doubling' up offices and effectively abolishing 5 senators/offices to impliment it. 

The explanation offered by NCYankee makes it seem like it would allow dual office holding (even if there is only one office de jure). That is part of the reason why the idea has my opposition.

Its not dual office holding, its one office with the power of both Governor and Senator and as part of the plan Regional Senate seats would be abolished, sorry if I wasn't clear.
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #114 on: July 02, 2009, 06:58:15 pm »
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If they're kept, regions should be redrawn once and left alone for a while. Regions are not congressional districts.

I guess we are making progress. I agree with a whopping 50% of what you said. Namely the last Sentence.
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« Reply #115 on: July 02, 2009, 07:00:26 pm »
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Why does this Council of Governors idea seem to pop up from time to time? I genuinely cannot think of anything more grotesque than 'doubling' up offices and effectively abolishing 5 senators/offices to impliment it. 

The explanation offered by NCYankee makes it seem like it would allow dual office holding (even if there is only one office de jure). That is part of the reason why the idea has my opposition.

Its not dual office holding, its one office with the power of both Governor and Senator and as part of the plan Regional Senate seats would be abolished, sorry if I wasn't clear.

But it would de facto be the same as if the two offices remained separate and the same person held both positions.
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #116 on: July 02, 2009, 07:19:52 pm »
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Why does this Council of Governors idea seem to pop up from time to time? I genuinely cannot think of anything more grotesque than 'doubling' up offices and effectively abolishing 5 senators/offices to impliment it. 

The explanation offered by NCYankee makes it seem like it would allow dual office holding (even if there is only one office de jure). That is part of the reason why the idea has my opposition.

Its not dual office holding, its one office with the power of both Governor and Senator and as part of the plan Regional Senate seats would be abolished, sorry if I wasn't clear.

But it would de facto be the same as if the two offices remained separate and the same person held both positions.

Yes but they would not be able to write and propose legislation though. They can only vote on legislation passed by the Atlarge Senators. The Flip side is that, according to Purple State, it will increase Regional Rights b/c only 3 votes is needed to kill legislation that the Regions don't like whereas now all fiveRegional Senators have to vote against something for it to fail. The Problem is you can have Anti-Regionalists be elected Governor.
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« Reply #117 on: July 02, 2009, 07:36:35 pm »
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The Problem is you can have Anti-Regionalists be elected Governor.

Bad argument. Anit-regionalists can elected as Regional Senators, too.
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« Reply #118 on: July 02, 2009, 09:46:33 pm »
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So much for me trying to contribute to this thread, everything I suggested just got shot down.  Tongue

The Council of Governors is a good idea because it reduces the number of regionally elected offices by five (one for each region), thus making the regional elections more competitive.

The regions should be re-drawn periodically for relatively equal membership in each.  Then we don't end up with a situation like we currently have in the Midwest, where we don't have enough members to support a legislature.  Plus, it adds a new element to the game that is currently missing....the debates on "re-regioning" could be quite interesting indeed!
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #119 on: July 02, 2009, 10:11:26 pm »
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The Problem is you can have Anti-Regionalists be elected Governor.

Bad argument. Anit-regionalists can elected as Regional Senators, too.

Yes and pro=regionalists can be elected to At-large Senate seats like DWTL, SPC etc. So the the whole arguement started by, my distinguished soon to be colleague, Puple State is flawed.

So much for me trying to contribute to this thread, everything I suggested just got shot down.  Tongue

The Council of Governors is a good idea because it reduces the number of regionally elected offices by five (one for each region), thus making the regional elections more competitive.

The regions should be re-drawn periodically for relatively equal membership in each.  Then we don't end up with a situation like we currently have in the Midwest, where we don't have enough members to support a legislature.  Plus, it adds a new element to the game that is currently missing....the debates on "re-regioning" could be quite interesting indeed!


And quite corrupt as well.
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« Reply #120 on: July 02, 2009, 10:12:55 pm »
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The regions should be re-drawn periodically for relatively equal membership in each.  Then we don't end up with a situation like we currently have in the Midwest, where we don't have enough members to support a legislature.  Plus, it adds a new element to the game that is currently missing....the debates on "re-regioning" could be quite interesting indeed!

Yes, but what about gerrymandering of regions? It's an aspect of this redistricting game that cannot be tossed aside, dusted away as unimportant, or reduced to irrelevance by saying it's normal. Regions are not congressional districts
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« Reply #121 on: July 02, 2009, 10:34:20 pm »
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The regions should be re-drawn periodically for relatively equal membership in each.  Then we don't end up with a situation like we currently have in the Midwest, where we don't have enough members to support a legislature.  Plus, it adds a new element to the game that is currently missing....the debates on "re-regioning" could be quite interesting indeed!

Yes, but what about gerrymandering of regions? It's an aspect of this redistricting game that cannot be tossed aside, dusted away as unimportant, or reduced to irrelevance by saying it's normal. Regions are not congressional districts

Well, I guess I respectfully disagree.  It is true that Regions are not, strictly speaking, congressional districts, but I think they could share some characteristics of congressional districts without hurting anything.  I acknowledged that gerrymandering would be an issue, but it is also an issue that politicians in the real world deal with.  This is a game.  We want the game to simulate reality, right?  I think the re-regioning process would have to have strict and clear legal guidelines designed to attempt to prevent gerrymandering.
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« Reply #122 on: July 02, 2009, 10:39:40 pm »
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The regions should be re-drawn periodically for relatively equal membership in each.  Then we don't end up with a situation like we currently have in the Midwest, where we don't have enough members to support a legislature.  Plus, it adds a new element to the game that is currently missing....the debates on "re-regioning" could be quite interesting indeed!

Yes, but what about gerrymandering of regions? It's an aspect of this redistricting game that cannot be tossed aside, dusted away as unimportant, or reduced to irrelevance by saying it's normal. Regions are not congressional districts

Well, I guess I respectfully disagree.  It is true that Regions are not, strictly speaking, congressional districts, but I think they could share some characteristics of congressional districts without hurting anything.  I acknowledged that gerrymandering would be an issue, but it is also an issue that politicians in the real world deal with.  This is a game.  We want the game to simulate reality, right?  I think the re-regioning process would have to have strict and clear legal guidelines designed to attempt to prevent gerrymandering.

They are closer to states, not districts. And this is a political simulation and just as in Real life the Gov't can't change a state's boundaries without there direct approval.
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« Reply #123 on: July 02, 2009, 11:13:49 pm »
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The regions shouldn't be redrawn at a set time every year. However, under extraordinary circumstances, such as a Pacific-esque region appearing, congress should have the authority to redraw them.
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« Reply #124 on: July 02, 2009, 11:26:08 pm »
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The regions shouldn't be redrawn at a set time every year. However, under extraordinary circumstances, such as a Pacific-esque region appearing, congress should have the authority to redraw them.

Only with Approval of 3/4's of the population of 5/5 of the Regions.
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