A few thoughts from your PO; AMENDMENTS AT VOTE

[Lief]

For me, a CoG and an at-large 10 seats Senate is an good compromise.

^^^^

It may not cut Regional power, but it does cut regional influence, especially if the CoG can only vote and not propose legislation.

I could not care less about regional power or influence or whatever. Most of the regions are dead, and nothing we've done has been able to revitalize them. People talk about giving the regions more power; have you read the constitution? They already have plenty of power! They've always had! But no one cares, they're not active, they're dead. Even the Regional Protection Party, in control of the entire Southeast, has done nothing besides changing the name of the region. So if you want to grandstand about regional influence or whatever, be my guest, I don't care. I just want fun, competitive and interesting elections, something that regional senate elections are not, as been proven time after time after time.

[Purple State]

@NC Yank: Good to hear.

@Officepark: The reform I mention is that the plan would spur changes in the regions. For example, by requiring that members of the lower house come from elected positions in the regions, it automatically forces regions to create certain elected positions (such as a legislature). For those that maintain an initiative style of government, it would give the Lt. Gov. something to do.

@Lief/MaxQue: What are your thoughts on my idea? It involves no CoG and would promote interesting, varied ways in which each region elects and chooses its representatives in the lower house. That could help spur some regional activity, reforms, etc. It also doesn't increase the number of elected positions, but does increase competition for these new, exclusive seats.

[Χahar]

For me, a CoG and an at-large 10 seats Senate is an good compromise.

^^^^

It may not cut Regional power, but it does cut regional influence, especially if the CoG can only vote and not propose legislation.

OH NOES!!!!!!!!!!

If you have regional influence, I want special influence for right-handed people.

[Senator North Carolina Yankee]

For me, a CoG and an at-large 10 seats Senate is an good compromise.

^^^^

It may not cut Regional power, but it does cut regional influence, especially if the CoG can only vote and not propose legislation.

OH NOES!!!!!!!!!!

If you have regional influence, I want special influence for right-handed people.

How many babies have you eaten today, Xahar? What happened to your Revolution, you didn't give me a chance to fire my wiff of grapeshot. .

[Vepres]

Are we going to attempt to compromise or what?

[Purple State]

I'll try to write something up tonight after work. You can all try to work something out on your own in the meantime. Does anyone want to answer my earlier call and tell me what you're willing to give up? Or is everyone staunchly opposed to any variation of what they envision?

[Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I'll try to write something up tonight after work. You can all try to work something out on your own in the meantime. Does anyone want to answer my earlier call and tell me what you're willing to give up? Or is everyone staunchly opposed to any variation of what they envision?

As I said before I am willing to cave on the Lt. Govs, the CJO's, the Assemblies in one or two regions and one region(4 regions is my minimum). 

[Χahar]

For me, a CoG and an at-large 10 seats Senate is an good compromise.

^^^^

It may not cut Regional power, but it does cut regional influence, especially if the CoG can only vote and not propose legislation.

OH NOES!!!!!!!!!!

If you have regional influence, I want special influence for right-handed people.

How many babies have you eaten today, Xahar? What happened to your Revolution, you didn't give me a chance to fire my wiff of grapeshot. .

I'm getting bored of it.

But no, seriously.

What do regions have intrinsically that entitle them to special influence? I've been asking this for well over a year now.

[Senator North Carolina Yankee]

For me, a CoG and an at-large 10 seats Senate is an good compromise.

^^^^

It may not cut Regional power, but it does cut regional influence, especially if the CoG can only vote and not propose legislation.

OH NOES!!!!!!!!!!

If you have regional influence, I want special influence for right-handed people.

How many babies have you eaten today, Xahar? What happened to your Revolution, you didn't give me a chance to fire my wiff of grapeshot. .

I'm getting bored of it.

But no, seriously.

What do regions have intrinsically that entitle them to special influence? I've been asking this for well over a year now.

But I was having fun. .

[Purple State]

My proposal (and no, its not a carbon copy of my previous proposal, read carefully):


The following shall be included in Article I as Section 2: The House, with subsequent sections renumbered accordingly:

1. The House shall be composed of a maximum of ten Representatives, each with a term of one month, distributed proportionally among the regions to the nearest whole number. The representatives shall be elected from among the members of the regional elected officials according to the laws of each region.
2. No Person shall be a Representative who has not attained one hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter and elected legislator in the Region that they represent.
3. The House shall choose their other officers, and also a Speaker of the House, who shall be responsible for chairing debate that occurs within the House, managing every day business and who shall not have a vote lest the chamber be tied.

Article I, Section 5 shall hereby be renumbered Section 4 and read as follows:

Section 3: Congressional Rules and Legislation
1. The separate chambers of Congress may establish their own rules of procedure, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, respectively, may expel a member of the same chamber.
2. Each chamber shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum in each chamber shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Senate, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the House and President of the Republic of Atlasia separately, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of the Senate. If the House and President do not approve, it shall not become Law. If the President approves and the House disapproves, they shall return the Bill with their objections to the Senate, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if the Senate shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If the President does not approve and the House approves, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Senate by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless. The House shall have seven days to act on a Bill, after which time they shall be considered as an abstention. In such a case, if the President approves the Bill shall become law, if he does not approve he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Senate for reconsideration and directed as per the above procedure.

Article I, Section 8 is hereby removed.

Article IV shall hereby read as follows:

Section 1: Regional Government
1. The Regions may elect a Governor as chief executive officer, and may establish other executive posts as they wish, however no executive member may be elected for a term of more than six months.
2. A Region may establish a legislature for itself to make proper laws and electoral procedures.
3. A Region may establish a judiciary for itself; However, if they choose not to, the federal Supreme Court shall arbitrate in all election disputes, but only insofar as Regional Law may provide.
4. Regions are autonomous of the federal government and may govern themselves and their elections as they wish, except where otherwise provided for in this Constitution.

Section 2: Regional Boundaries
1. The existing Regions of Atlasia are adopted unaltered by this Constitution.
2. The consent of the House is required for any change in Region boundaries.
3. The consent of the Regions being changed is required.
4. A State by plebescite shall be able to veto its transfer from one Region to another.
5. In the event that a new State joins Atlasia, the Senate may apportion this State to a Region and a District via proper legislation, however, the State shall still be liable to all the provisions of this Section and Section 4 of this Article.
 
Section 3: Supremacy Clause and Restriction on Federal Government
This Constitution and the Laws of the Republic of Atlasia which shall be made in Pursuance thereof, shall be the Supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every Region shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or Laws of any Region to the contrary notwithstanding.
The powers not delegated to the Republic of Atlasia by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the Regions, are reserved to the Regions respectively, or to the people.

[Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I see no outright deal breakers in this proposal, however I would prefer some time to study it in detail and compare it to the current constitution.

However I do find it exceedingly interesting that the distinguished presiding office no longer deems necessary the reduction in the the number of office holders. Indeed from what I can see the distinguised presiding officer is adding a considerable number of offices far more then even my plan did. Would the distinguised presiding officer care to explain his sudden change of heart on this matter?

[Purple State]

I see no outright deal breakers in this proposal, however I would prefer some time to study it in detail and compare it to the current constitution.

However I do find it exceedingly interesting that the distinguished presiding office no longer deems necessary the reduction in the the number of office holders. Indeed from what I can see the distinguised presiding officer is adding a considerable number of offices far more then even my plan did. Would the distinguised presiding officer care to explain his sudden change of heart on this matter?

I don't actually add anything. The 10 members of the House would be drawn from existing officeholders on the regional level (i.e. governors, lt. governors, assemblymen, CJOs). While the regions may add offices on their own, the proposal does not directly create positions.

Also, what led me not to reduce the number of seats is that there was no seats I could remove. You wouldn't accept the removal of regional senators and there was no way at-large seats, the more exciting races, could be removed. I will hear ideas for what seats can be removed if anyone has thoughts.

[Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I see no outright deal breakers in this proposal, however I would prefer some time to study it in detail and compare it to the current constitution.

However I do find it exceedingly interesting that the distinguished presiding office no longer deems necessary the reduction in the the number of office holders. Indeed from what I can see the distinguised presiding officer is adding a considerable number of offices far more then even my plan did. Would the distinguised presiding officer care to explain his sudden change of heart on this matter?

I don't actually add anything. The 10 members of the House would be drawn from existing officeholders on the regional level (i.e. governors, lt. governors, assemblymen, CJOs). While the regions may add offices on their own, the proposal does not directly create positions.

Also, what led me not to reduce the number of seats is that there was no seats I could remove. You wouldn't accept the removal of regional senators and there was no way at-large seats, the more exciting races, could be removed. I will hear ideas for what seats can be removed if anyone has thoughts.

I am sorry, as I said I need to study the thing in detail, I didn't notice that this would be like dual office holding. Let me read, compare, and think and I will get back to you on this. Oh I am not criticing the proposal for not reducing offices, I still do not see the necessity in reducing them. But the left will not except this proposal, I can tell you that right now. They want offices reduced yesterday.

[Purple State]

I see no outright deal breakers in this proposal, however I would prefer some time to study it in detail and compare it to the current constitution.

However I do find it exceedingly interesting that the distinguished presiding office no longer deems necessary the reduction in the the number of office holders. Indeed from what I can see the distinguised presiding officer is adding a considerable number of offices far more then even my plan did. Would the distinguised presiding officer care to explain his sudden change of heart on this matter?

I don't actually add anything. The 10 members of the House would be drawn from existing officeholders on the regional level (i.e. governors, lt. governors, assemblymen, CJOs). While the regions may add offices on their own, the proposal does not directly create positions.

Also, what led me not to reduce the number of seats is that there was no seats I could remove. You wouldn't accept the removal of regional senators and there was no way at-large seats, the more exciting races, could be removed. I will hear ideas for what seats can be removed if anyone has thoughts.

I am sorry, as I said I need to study the thing in detail, I didn't notice that this would be like dual office holding. Let me read, compare, and think and I will get back to you on this. Oh I am not criticing the proposal for not reducing offices, I still do not see the necessity in reducing them. But the left will not except this proposal, I can tell you that right now. They want offices reduced yesterday.

I would like to hear what they have to say. This is the best starting point for a compromise I could think of.

Everyone is welcome to offer their ideas, but bear in mind this is a compromise proposal and you will not get everything you want.

[RIP Robert H Bork]

My proposal (and no, its not a carbon copy of my previous proposal, read carefully):


The following shall be included in Article I as Section 2: The House, with subsequent sections renumbered accordingly:

1. The House shall be composed of a maximum of ten (undecided) Representatives, each with a term of one month, distributed proportionally among the regions to the nearest whole number. The representatives shall be elected from among the members of the regional elected officials according to the laws of each region. For the purposes of the House, each Region shall be divided into Districts. The number of Districts that a Region gets shall be as equal as possible to that Region's share of the Atlasian population, but each Region shall have at least one District. The population in each District shall be as equal as possible to the other Districts in the same Region. Each District shall elect one Representative.
2. No Person shall be a Representative who has not attained one hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter and elected legislator in the Region in the District that they represent.
3. The House shall choose their other officers, and also a Speaker of the House, who shall be responsible for chairing debate that occurs within the House, managing every day business and who shall not have a vote lest the chamber be tied.

Article I, Section 5 shall hereby be renumbered Section 4 and read as follows:

Section 3: Congressional Rules and Legislation
1. The separate chambers of Congress may establish their own rules of procedure, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, respectively, may expel a member of the same chamber.
2. Each chamber shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum in each chamber shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Senate, it shall have gained a majority in both chambers in a valid vote. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the House and President of the Republic of Atlasia separately, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of the Senate. If the House and President do not approve, it shall not become Law. If the President approves and the House disapproves, they shall return the Bill with their objections to the Senate Congress, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if the Senate each chamber of Congress shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If the President does not approve and the House approves, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Senate by the President within seven days ten days, not including Sundays, after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless. The House shall have seven days to act on a Bill, after which time they shall be considered as an abstention. In such a case, if the President approves the Bill shall become law, if he does not approve he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Senate for reconsideration and directed as per the above procedure.

Article I, Section 8 is hereby removed repealed. (undecided)

Article IV shall hereby read as follows:

Section 1: Regional Government
1. The Regions may elect a Governor as chief executive officer, and may establish other executive posts as they wish, however no executive member may be elected for a term of more than six months.
2. A Region may establish a legislature for itself to make proper laws and electoral procedures.
3. A Region may establish a judiciary for itself; However, if they choose not to, the federal Supreme Court shall arbitrate in all election disputes, but only insofar as Regional Law may provide.
4. Regions are autonomous of the federal government and may govern themselves and their elections as they wish, except where otherwise provided for in this Constitution.

Section 2: Regional Boundaries
1. The existing Regions of Atlasia are adopted unaltered by this Constitution.
2. The consent of the House each chamber of Congress is required for any change in Region boundaries.
3. The consent of the Regions being changed is required.
4. A State by plebescite shall be able to veto its transfer from one Region to another.
5. In the event that a new State joins Atlasia, the Senate may apportion this State to a Region and a District via proper legislation, however, the State shall still be liable to all the provisions of this Section and Section 4 of this Article.
 
Section 3: Supremacy Clause and Restriction on Federal Government
This Constitution and the Laws of the Republic of Atlasia which shall be made in Pursuance thereof, shall be the Supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every Region shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or Laws of any Region to the contrary notwithstanding.
The powers not delegated to the Republic of Atlasia by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the Regions, are reserved to the Regions respectively, or to the people.

Some of my disagreements with Purple State's proposals are major, some are minor, and some are just fixing errors.

You also forgot amending the very first sentence of the article, which should read, "All Legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia, which shall be composed of two chambers, the Senate and the House of Representatives, which may also be referred to as the House." (and similarly replacing "the Senate" with "Congress" elsewhere in the article as necessary).

[Purple State]

I would rather we not revert back to districts if, as I am told, those failed miserably. It also means that there would have to be someone qualified to open and close and certify district elections, which would cause all sorts of issues and complications.

[Senator North Carolina Yankee]

My proposal (and no, its not a carbon copy of my previous proposal, read carefully):


The following shall be included in Article I as Section 2: The House, with subsequent sections renumbered accordingly:

1. The House shall be composed of a maximum of ten (undecided) Representatives, each with a term of one month, distributed proportionally among the regions to the nearest whole number. The representatives shall be elected from among the members of the regional elected officials according to the laws of each region. For the purposes of the House, each Region shall be divided into Districts. The number of Districts that a Region gets shall be as equal as possible to that Region's share of the Atlasian population, but each Region shall have at least one District. The population in each District shall be as equal as possible to the other Districts in the same Region. Each District shall elect one Representative.
2. No Person shall be a Representative who has not attained one hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter and elected legislator in the Region in the District that they represent.
3. The House shall choose their other officers, and also a Speaker of the House, who shall be responsible for chairing debate that occurs within the House, managing every day business and who shall not have a vote lest the chamber be tied.

Article I, Section 5 shall hereby be renumbered Section 4 and read as follows:

Section 3: Congressional Rules and Legislation
1. The separate chambers of Congress may establish their own rules of procedure, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, respectively, may expel a member of the same chamber.
2. Each chamber shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum in each chamber shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Senate, it shall have gained a majority in both chambers in a valid vote. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the House and President of the Republic of Atlasia separately, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of the Senate. If the House and President do not approve, it shall not become Law. If the President approves and the House disapproves, they shall return the Bill with their objections to the Senate Congress, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if the Senate each chamber of Congress shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If the President does not approve and the House approves, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Senate by the President within seven days ten days, not including Sundays, after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless. The House shall have seven days to act on a Bill, after which time they shall be considered as an abstention. In such a case, if the President approves the Bill shall become law, if he does not approve he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Senate for reconsideration and directed as per the above procedure.

Article I, Section 8 is hereby removed repealed. (undecided)

Article IV shall hereby read as follows:

Section 1: Regional Government
1. The Regions may elect a Governor as chief executive officer, and may establish other executive posts as they wish, however no executive member may be elected for a term of more than six months.
2. A Region may establish a legislature for itself to make proper laws and electoral procedures.
3. A Region may establish a judiciary for itself; However, if they choose not to, the federal Supreme Court shall arbitrate in all election disputes, but only insofar as Regional Law may provide.
4. Regions are autonomous of the federal government and may govern themselves and their elections as they wish, except where otherwise provided for in this Constitution.

Section 2: Regional Boundaries
1. The existing Regions of Atlasia are adopted unaltered by this Constitution.
2. The consent of the House each chamber of Congress is required for any change in Region boundaries.
3. The consent of the Regions being changed is required.
4. A State by plebescite shall be able to veto its transfer from one Region to another.
5. In the event that a new State joins Atlasia, the Senate may apportion this State to a Region and a District via proper legislation, however, the State shall still be liable to all the provisions of this Section and Section 4 of this Article.
 
Section 3: Supremacy Clause and Restriction on Federal Government
This Constitution and the Laws of the Republic of Atlasia which shall be made in Pursuance thereof, shall be the Supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every Region shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or Laws of any Region to the contrary notwithstanding.
The powers not delegated to the Republic of Atlasia by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the Regions, are reserved to the Regions respectively, or to the people.

Some of my disagreements with Purple State's proposals are major, some are minor, and some are just fixing errors.

You also forgot amending the very first sentence of the article, which should read, "All Legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia, which shall be composed of two chambers, the Senate and the House of Representatives, which may also be referred to as the House." (and similarly replacing "the Senate" with "Congress" elsewhere in the article as necessary).

Such a proposal, I have considered already, amd I would dub it Americanizaton. I would love to have that system in place today. However the electorate isn't ready for "enlightened ideas" though. Someday my friend, someday.  

[RIP Robert H Bork]

Such a proposal, I have considered already, amd I would dub it Americanizaton. I would love to have that system in place today. However the electorate isn't ready for "enlightened ideas" though. Someday my friend, someday.  

That nickname does not surprise me, and it is pleasing to have someone in agreement with my ideas.

[Vepres]

1. The House shall be composed of a maximum of ten (undecided) Representatives, each with a term of one month, distributed proportionally among the regions to the nearest whole number. The representatives shall be elected from among the members of the regional elected officials according to the laws of each region. For the purposes of the House, each Region shall be divided intogiven a number of Districts representatives. The number of Districts representatives that a Region gets shall be as equal as possible to that Region's share of the Atlasian population, but each Region shall have at least one Districtrepresentative. The population in each District shall be as equal as possible to the other Districts in the same Region. Each District region shall elect one it's Representatives in a region-wide election using the PR-STV voting method.

This is better.

[Fmr. Emperor PiT]

1. The House shall be composed of a maximum of ten (undecided) Representatives, each with a term of one month, distributed proportionally among the regions to the nearest whole number. The representatives shall be elected from among the members of the regional elected officials according to the laws of each region. For the purposes of the House, each Region shall be divided intogiven a number of Districts representatives. The number of Districts representatives that a Region gets shall be as equal as possible to that Region's share of the Atlasian population, but each Region shall have at least one Districtrepresentative. The population in each District shall be as equal as possible to the other Districts in the same Region. Each District region shall elect one it's Representatives in a region-wide election using the PR-STV voting method.

This is better.

     The problem that arises there is that every region will just get two representatives since they are all nearly identical in size. Doesn't seem like the most interesting possible reform.

[Χahar]

For me, a CoG and an at-large 10 seats Senate is an good compromise.

^^^^

It may not cut Regional power, but it does cut regional influence, especially if the CoG can only vote and not propose legislation.

OH NOES!!!!!!!!!!

If you have regional influence, I want special influence for right-handed people.

How many babies have you eaten today, Xahar? What happened to your Revolution, you didn't give me a chance to fire my wiff of grapeshot. .

I'm getting bored of it.

But no, seriously.

What do regions have intrinsically that entitle them to special influence? I've been asking this for well over a year now.

But I was having fun. .

Then recruit people to my side.

But first, answer my question.

[Senator North Carolina Yankee]

For me, a CoG and an at-large 10 seats Senate is an good compromise.

^^^^

It may not cut Regional power, but it does cut regional influence, especially if the CoG can only vote and not propose legislation.

OH NOES!!!!!!!!!!

If you have regional influence, I want special influence for right-handed people.

How many babies have you eaten today, Xahar? What happened to your Revolution, you didn't give me a chance to fire my wiff of grapeshot. .

I'm getting bored of it.

But no, seriously.

What do regions have intrinsically that entitle them to special influence? I've been asking this for well over a year now.

But I was having fun. .

Then recruit people to my side.

But first, answer my question.

You missunderstand. I was having fun putting you guys in front of the firing squad.

[Purple State]

For me, a CoG and an at-large 10 seats Senate is an good compromise.

^^^^

It may not cut Regional power, but it does cut regional influence, especially if the CoG can only vote and not propose legislation.

OH NOES!!!!!!!!!!

If you have regional influence, I want special influence for right-handed people.

How many babies have you eaten today, Xahar? What happened to your Revolution, you didn't give me a chance to fire my wiff of grapeshot. .

I'm getting bored of it.

But no, seriously.

What do regions have intrinsically that entitle them to special influence? I've been asking this for well over a year now.

But I was having fun. .

Then recruit people to my side.

But first, answer my question.

The honest answer to your question is that regions have special influence because: a) they must confirm anything we pass and b) they have a hell of a constituency. No amendment removing regions, even were it to pass the Convention or Senate, would make it through the regional votes. On the other hand, nothing considerably weakening the national government would pass either. That is why we need to compromise in such ways.

Would it be nicer and more efficient if we could pass the best possible reform? Of course! Unfortunately, entrenched interests rule in this game and so that is what we must work with.

[Purple State]

Does the Lief/MaxQue crowd have any thoughts regarding my compromise proposal?

[Senator MaxQue]

Does the Lief/MaxQue crowd have any thoughts regarding my compromise proposal?

Personally, I don't like imposing on regions the way to choose their representative.