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Author Topic: A few thoughts from your PO; AMENDMENTS AT VOTE  (Read 24714 times)
Хahar
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« Reply #225 on: July 14, 2009, 06:01:33 pm »
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There is no compelling reason to provide reverence to the regions, except that we no longer have the power to stop it. I also think the regions provide enough benefit to the game to warrant maintaining them and, yes, empowering them.

In what sense?

Now I'm starting to get really upset that nobody ever answers my questions. Note that my comment wasn't originally directed at you.
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« Reply #226 on: July 14, 2009, 06:05:13 pm »
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There is no compelling reason to provide reverence to the regions, except that we no longer have the power to stop it. I also think the regions provide enough benefit to the game to warrant maintaining them and, yes, empowering them.

In what sense?

Now I'm starting to get really upset that nobody ever answers my questions. Note that my comment wasn't originally directed at you.

I'm answering them and few others participate in here.

And regions are beneficial in the sense that they provide fertile grounds for new members to become familiar with the game and some senior members. If you look at the Mideast Assembly, even when not a vibrantly active legislature as it once was, it gives new citizens a place to learn what crafting a bill entails, parliamentary procedure and how to work with more senior members like Peter and Inks. It's a better orientation than the Introduction to Atlasia thread, without a doubt. It also gives these new members a sense that they are climbing the ladder, contributing, etc.
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« Reply #227 on: July 14, 2009, 07:02:54 pm »
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There is no compelling reason to provide reverence to the regions, except that we no longer have the power to stop it. I also think the regions provide enough benefit to the game to warrant maintaining them and, yes, empowering them.

In what sense?

Now I'm starting to get really upset that nobody ever answers my questions. Note that my comment wasn't originally directed at you.

Nobody's going to answer our questions in a way that is satisfactory to us; I've just given up on it Tongue
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« Reply #228 on: July 14, 2009, 07:45:29 pm »
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There is no compelling reason to provide reverence to the regions, except that we no longer have the power to stop it. I also think the regions provide enough benefit to the game to warrant maintaining them and, yes, empowering them.

In what sense?

Now I'm starting to get really upset that nobody ever answers my questions. Note that my comment wasn't originally directed at you.

I'm answering them and few others participate in here.

And regions are beneficial in the sense that they provide fertile grounds for new members to become familiar with the game and some senior members. If you look at the Mideast Assembly, even when not a vibrantly active legislature as it once was, it gives new citizens a place to learn what crafting a bill entails, parliamentary procedure and how to work with more senior members like Peter and Inks. It's a better orientation than the Introduction to Atlasia thread, without a doubt. It also gives these new members a sense that they are climbing the ladder, contributing, etc.

Not satisfactorily.

Don't lecture me about the Mideast Assembly; I created it. But why do we keep the regions the way they are when it's painfully obvious they've failed?

There is no compelling reason to provide reverence to the regions, except that we no longer have the power to stop it. I also think the regions provide enough benefit to the game to warrant maintaining them and, yes, empowering them.

In what sense?

Now I'm starting to get really upset that nobody ever answers my questions. Note that my comment wasn't originally directed at you.

Nobody's going to answer our questions in a way that is satisfactory to us; I've just given up on it Tongue

All the answers are satisfactory in West Atlasia!
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« Reply #229 on: July 14, 2009, 08:30:21 pm »
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There is no compelling reason to provide reverence to the regions, except that we no longer have the power to stop it. I also think the regions provide enough benefit to the game to warrant maintaining them and, yes, empowering them.

In what sense?

Now I'm starting to get really upset that nobody ever answers my questions. Note that my comment wasn't originally directed at you.

I'm answering them and few others participate in here.

And regions are beneficial in the sense that they provide fertile grounds for new members to become familiar with the game and some senior members. If you look at the Mideast Assembly, even when not a vibrantly active legislature as it once was, it gives new citizens a place to learn what crafting a bill entails, parliamentary procedure and how to work with more senior members like Peter and Inks. It's a better orientation than the Introduction to Atlasia thread, without a doubt. It also gives these new members a sense that they are climbing the ladder, contributing, etc.

Not satisfactorily.

Don't lecture me about the Mideast Assembly; I created it. But why do we keep the regions the way they are when it's painfully obvious they've failed?

I can't help what you find satisfactory or not. And enough with your "I created this, that and the other" crap. You haven't been seriously involved in Atlasia in how long? You've returned as a joke, a shadow of whatever former glory you may have had. The game has left you behind, the Mideast has changed, the Constitution was revamped. You had nothing to do with any of it. Stop trying to pretend that you are a serious poster and good riddance to you.
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« Reply #230 on: July 14, 2009, 08:48:42 pm »
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Aye

Aye
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« Reply #231 on: July 14, 2009, 09:40:57 pm »
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Aye
Nay
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« Reply #232 on: July 14, 2009, 10:59:19 pm »
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I mean answers I can't get out of you, because you don't hold the views I'm questioning.
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« Reply #233 on: July 15, 2009, 09:01:32 pm »
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Quote
Article 1, Section 2, Clause 1 is replaced by ''The House shall be composed of a maximum of nine Representatives, each with a term of one month, distributed proportionally among the regions to the nearest whole number.''

Aye = 2
Nay = 1

Quote
Article 1, Section 4 shall read as follows:

   1. The Senate shall be divided into two classes: Class A and Class B, who shall be elected at-large.
   2. Elections for the seats in Class A shall be held in the months of February, June and October; Elections for the seats in Class B shall be held in the months of April, August and December.
   3. Regular elections to the Senate and Presidency shall begin between midnight Eastern Standard Time on the second to last Thursday of the month in which they otherwise would have started and 0001 Eastern Standard Time on the first Friday thereafter, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning.
   4. If a vacancy shall occur in a Senate seat, then a special election shall be called to fill the remainder of the vacated term within one week of the vacancy occurring. Special elections to the Senate shall begin within ten days of the vacancy occurring and shall begin between midnight Eastern Standard Time on a Thursday and 0001 Eastern Standard Time on the first Friday thereafter, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning. However, if a vacancy shall occur when there is a person due to assume that office within two weeks, then no special election shall be necessary.
   5. The Senate shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of Senate elections and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to the Senate shall be by public post.
   6. Those elected in ordinary elections to the Senate shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the first Friday in the month after their election. Those elected in special elections to the Senate shall take office as soon as the result of their election has been formally declared.

Aye = 2
Nay = 1



Regardless of whether people care about this Convention anymore, I will let those who appear to vote run the show from here on out. Both amendments pass. Here is the current form of the proposal:

The following shall be included in Article I as Section 2: The House, with subsequent sections renumbered accordingly:
Quote
1. The House shall be composed of a maximum of nine Representatives, each with a term of one month, distributed proportionally among the regions to the nearest whole number.
2. No Person shall be a Representative who has not attained one hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter and elected legislator in the Region that they represent.
3. The House shall choose their other officers, and also a Speaker of the House, who shall be responsible for chairing debate that occurs within the House, managing every day business and who shall not have a vote lest the chamber be equally divided.

Article I, Section 5 shall hereby be renumbered Section 4 and read as follows:
Quote
Section 3: Congressional Rules and Legislation
1. The separate chambers of Congress may establish their own rules of procedure, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, respectively, may expel a member of the same chamber.
2. Each chamber shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum in each chamber shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Senate, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the House and President of the Republic of Atlasia separately, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of the Senate. If the House and President do not approve, the former by a majority in a valid vote, it shall not become Law. If the President approves and the House disapproves, they shall return the Bill with their objections to the Senate, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if the Senate shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If the President does not approve and the House approves, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Senate by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless. The House shall have seven days to act on a Bill, after which time they shall be considered as an abstention. In such a case, if the President approves the Bill shall become law, if he does not approve he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Senate for reconsideration as directed per the above procedure.

Article I, Section 4 shall read as follows:
Quote
1. The Senate shall be divided into two classes: Class A and Class B, who shall be elected at-large.
2. Elections for the seats in Class A shall be held in the months of February, June and October; Elections for the seats in Class B shall be held in the months of April, August and December.
3. Regular elections to the Senate and Presidency shall begin between midnight Eastern Standard Time on the second to last Thursday of the month in which they otherwise would have started and 0001 Eastern Standard Time on the first Friday thereafter, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning.
4. If a vacancy shall occur in a Senate seat, then a special election shall be called to fill the remainder of the vacated term within one week of the vacancy occurring. Special elections to the Senate shall begin within ten days of the vacancy occurring and shall begin between midnight Eastern Standard Time on a Thursday and 0001 Eastern Standard Time on the first Friday thereafter, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning. However, if a vacancy shall occur when there is a person due to assume that office within two weeks, then no special election shall be necessary.
5. The Senate shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of Senate elections and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to the Senate shall be by public post.
6. Those elected in ordinary elections to the Senate shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the first Friday in the month after their election. Those elected in special elections to the Senate shall take office as soon as the result of their election has been formally declared.

Article I, Section 8 is hereby removed.

Article IV shall hereby read as follows:
Quote
Section 1: Regional Government
1. The Regions may elect a Governor as chief executive officer, and may establish other executive posts as they wish, however no executive member may be elected for a term of more than six months.
2. A Region may establish a legislature for itself to make proper laws and electoral procedures.
3. Regions are autonomous of the federal government and may govern themselves and their elections as they wish, except where otherwise provided for in this Constitution.
4. The Secretary of Forum Affairs shall determine and announce the number of representatives each region may elect to the House. Such determination shall be based on the proportion of the total population of Atlasia.

Section 2: Regional Boundaries
1. The existing Regions of Atlasia are adopted unaltered by this Constitution.
2. The consent of the House and Senate is required for any change in Region boundaries.
3. The consent of the Regions being changed is required.
4. A State by plebescite shall be able to veto its transfer from one Region to another.
5. In the event that a new State joins Atlasia, the Senate may apportion this State to a Region and a District via proper legislation, however, the State shall still be liable to all the provisions of this Section and Section 4 of this Article.
 
Section 3: Supremacy Clause and Restriction on Federal Government
This Constitution and the Laws of the Republic of Atlasia which shall be made in Pursuance thereof, shall be the Supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every Region shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or Laws of any Region to the contrary notwithstanding.
The powers not delegated to the Republic of Atlasia by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the Regions, are reserved to the Regions respectively, or to the people.
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« Reply #234 on: July 15, 2009, 09:14:50 pm »
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Regardless of whether people care about this Convention anymore, I will let those who appear to vote run the show from here on out. Both amendments pass.

Wow, I should try to get you removed as Presiding Officer for that.
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« Reply #235 on: July 15, 2009, 09:18:25 pm »
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Regardless of whether people care about this Convention anymore, I will let those who appear to vote run the show from here on out. Both amendments pass.

Wow, I should try to get you removed as Presiding Officer for that.

For letting those who care enough to vote be heard and disregarding those who do not show up? I thought that is the way democracy works.
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« Reply #236 on: July 15, 2009, 09:19:38 pm »
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Regardless of whether people care about this Convention anymore, I will let those who appear to vote run the show from here on out. Both amendments pass.

Wow, I should try to get you removed as Presiding Officer for that.

For letting those who care enough to vote be heard and disregarding those who do not show up? I thought that is the way democracy works.

Three. Votes.
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« Reply #237 on: July 15, 2009, 09:30:52 pm »
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Regardless of whether people care about this Convention anymore, I will let those who appear to vote run the show from here on out. Both amendments pass.

Wow, I should try to get you removed as Presiding Officer for that.

For letting those who care enough to vote be heard and disregarding those who do not show up? I thought that is the way democracy works.

Three. Votes.

Only three people care. I haven't been keeping this stuff a secret. I have just notified everyone in the Atlas Fantasy board. I will allow time for comments and additional amendments. Not to mention nothing can pass the Convention without every delegate voting, in addition this passing the regions by referendum. Passing an amendment to an informal proposal without a quorum is not the end of the world.
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« Reply #238 on: July 15, 2009, 09:35:52 pm »
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It's still three freaking votes, there's a reason I haven't paid attention to this convention, and it's because of stuff like that. (And the people who vote on them. The no-regions folk are overrepresented here, and you're not bringing up alternative ideas for discussion. There's a ton of opposition to these ideas, and it's gotten to the point no one even acknowledges what in the hell goes on outside this ConCon.)

I've never seen something so completely absurd in my life. This isn't a constitutional convention anymore, this is the "Purple State Has A Grand Idea!" show, Come one! Come all!, and we're just here to tinker with your previously failed proposals.
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« Reply #239 on: July 15, 2009, 09:39:07 pm »
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     I'm not even really sure where we're going with this anymore.
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« Reply #240 on: July 15, 2009, 09:54:25 pm »
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I don't think we should be debating proposals in depth until the ConCon and when we get there we should do it very slowly and patiently to get it right.

I look forward to your perfect plan.
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« Reply #241 on: July 15, 2009, 09:55:28 pm »
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I don't think we should be debating proposals in depth until the ConCon and when we get there we should do it very slowly and patiently to get it right.

I look forward to your perfect plan.

I thank the disgraced former attorney general and convicted criminal for his opinions on my irrelevant past comments.
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« Reply #242 on: July 15, 2009, 09:59:28 pm »
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It's still three freaking votes, there's a reason I haven't paid attention to this convention, and it's because of stuff like that. (And the people who vote on them. The no-regions folk are overrepresented here, and you're not bringing up alternative ideas for discussion. There's a ton of opposition to these ideas, and it's gotten to the point no one even acknowledges what in the hell goes on outside this ConCon.)

I've never seen something so completely absurd in my life. This isn't a constitutional convention anymore, this is the "Purple State Has A Grand Idea!" show, Come one! Come all!, and we're just here to tinker with your previously failed proposals.

I'm sorry? I disagree with both of the amendments Max offered. You voted for one of them and they passed. So how is this my grand idea? You left the Convention because you got lazy and don't believe in any reform, not because you disagree with my specific proposal.

Offer your ideas in a concrete proposal (no, not an unwieldy paragraph, an actual proposal) and we can discuss it.
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« Reply #243 on: July 15, 2009, 10:04:12 pm »
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I'm not bringing up a damn thing in this sham of a "Convention" so long as you preside over it. You already know where I stand.

I brought up a proposal that played a part in sparking this glorious grand-standing of yours. Ignored. I tried to alter one of the proposals on the floor like what was done to Presidential Universalism. Ignored. I said I supported a previously ignored idea that Max and Lief supported. I too, was ignored. You have demonstrated no interest in listening to anything that doesn't fit your preconceived notions on what constitutes reform, and remain stubbornly in support of ideas the Senate loudly rejected just weeks ago.

And now you're ignoring your own rules and allowing amendments to pass with just two votes in favor of it. You ought to be thrown out of this place.
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« Reply #244 on: July 15, 2009, 10:07:30 pm »
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I'm not bringing up a damn thing in this sham of a "Convention" so long as you preside over it. You already know where I stand.

I brought up a proposal that played a part in sparking this glorious grand-standing of yours. Ignored. I tried to alter one of the proposals on the floor like what was done to Presidential Universalism. Ignored. I said I supported a previously ignored idea that Max and Lief supported. I too, was ignored. You have demonstrated no interest in listening to anything that doesn't fit your preconceived notions on what constitutes reform, and remain stubbornly in support of ideas the Senate loudly rejected just weeks ago.

And now you're ignoring your own rules and allowing amendments to pass with just two votes in favor of it. You ought to be thrown out of this place.

It's an informal proposal, so the Rules of Order do not apply. I was asking for input on my idea so it could be presented, rather than holding "official" votes.

And your proposal was not anything concrete or written out. It was a long and complex series of paragraphs leaving it to me to work out exactly what that would require.

If no one cares at all I am fine closing the Convention and having the Senate pass any reforms that are deemed necessary. Apparently when people say that the Convention should have done something, no one really means it.
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« Reply #245 on: July 16, 2009, 12:06:51 am »
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     I'm not even really sure where we're going with this anymore.

We're going in a dead-end, PiT.
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« Reply #246 on: July 16, 2009, 12:53:08 am »
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Haven't been on the Atlas much lately. I must say that I like your proposal Purple State. I would like to remind all the skeptical delegates that if it fails to achieve results you can open a new convention.
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« Reply #247 on: July 16, 2009, 12:58:51 am »
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I don't think we should be debating proposals in depth until the ConCon and when we get there we should do it very slowly and patiently to get it right.

I look forward to your perfect plan.

I thank the disgraced former attorney general and convicted criminal for his opinions on my irrelevant past comments.

You can't hold a politician responsible for every word that he might say, eh?
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« Reply #248 on: July 16, 2009, 07:43:53 am »
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     I'm not even really sure where we're going with this anymore.

I know. Nowhere. Except assist in angerangeranger moments.
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