What should be done about laws that everyone breaks?
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  What should be done about laws that everyone breaks?
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Author Topic: What should be done about laws that everyone breaks?  (Read 1961 times)
Jacobtm
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« on: July 04, 2009, 12:24:14 AM »

I'm thinking of laws like speed limits, marijuana prohibition, drinking age of 21 etc.

I'm sure many people on this forum have smoked or do smoke marijuana, and that while there may be "dry spells", there's usually no problem for anyone who wants it to get it.

I'm sure there are even more people on this forum who have drank illegally. In fact, I'd be really surprised to find anyone who waited until they're 21 to drink first; it happens, but it's pretty damned rare.

Speed limits are a bit different, because they vary so much. But in NY, the maximum speed limit on any highway is 65, and some semi-major highways are as low as 45.

So all these laws are regularly, routinely broken. People get prosecuted for them, but it's relatively rare. Does reason dictate that, since these laws are largely unenforceable, they should just be made legal?
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jfern
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« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2009, 12:33:12 AM »

Jaywalking is a better example of such a law.
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Jacobtm
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« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2009, 12:34:45 AM »


If you're trying to coax an answer of "trash the law," then yes, but these issues have more serious side-effects than jay walking, and thus test people's commitment to the idea behind legalizing jaywalking.
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dead0man
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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2009, 12:36:18 AM »

While I don't think a law should be wiped off the books because it's unenforceable 100% of the time, it should certainly come into consideration when writing the laws in the first place.  Sometimes normal people litter or jaywalk, that doesn't mean we should get rid of those laws.  

Speed limits need study and they should change as road and traffic conditions change.  The limit should be for safety only and not used as tool to limit fuel consumption or other deviousness.

Of course pot laws need to be changed/removed and the drinking age...well, there really shouldn't be one.  18 to purchase.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2009, 12:36:58 AM »

you're thinking of the legal system as if it is perfect.  in reality, it is about the same as everything else we have created; an approximation.  certain enclaves that you can find can lead to conclusions as drawn in the original post, but it is necessary to take a step back.  what does it typically take to be prosecuted for a speeding violation?  around here, the rule of thumb is that anything lower than 70 on a 55 is completely safe, and people do routinely go 75-80 and don't get bothered by cops except in rare instances.

if the speed limit were changed to 70, people would start to go 80 and 85.  and if you want to start enforcing that law, you can, but you're going to need a whole lot more manpower to actually start enforcing a hard speed limit.  another thing: law enforcement is like everything else, in the absence of infinite energy: it has a budget.  in neighboring Nassau County the narc squad or whatever they have hasn't bothered to try to crack down on marijuana or even cocaine/crack, they've just been working on the heroin outbreak or whatever it is for several months.
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Jacobtm
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« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2009, 12:39:52 AM »

marijuana prohibition, drinking age of 21
"Everyone" breaks these?  I have never even seen or smelled marijuana as far as I know, and I never had alcohol until buying an obligatory drink on my 21st birthday, and none since then.

Poor wording, you're right. Everyone who wants to can break them. You're the kind of person who wouldn't behave any differently if these things were legal, so changing the law wouldn't really affect you.

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Jacobtm
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« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2009, 12:42:07 AM »

if the speed limit were changed to 70, people would start to go 80 and 85.

If driving fast is dangerous, but the flow of traffic is around 75 when conditions allow, wouldn't it be better to up the speed  limit to 75 and then focus in on the people who're really driving fast/recklessly? The way it is now someone theoretically has as much chance of being pulled over doing 66 as 90, even though in another part of the state the speed limit would be 65, and in other states speed limits on major highways can reach 80 (such as 95 in Georgia).

Don't you think that an 80 speed limit really seperates out the crazy drivers quite clearly?
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dead0man
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2009, 12:55:34 AM »

if the speed limit were changed to 70, people would start to go 80 and 85.

If driving fast is dangerous, but the flow of traffic is around 75 when conditions allow, wouldn't it be better to up the speed  limit to 75 and then focus in on the people who're really driving fast/recklessly? The way it is now someone theoretically has as much chance of being pulled over doing 66 as 90, even though in another part of the state the speed limit would be 65, and in other states speed limits on major highways can reach 80 (such as 95 in Georgia).

Don't you think that an 80 speed limit really seperates out the crazy drivers quite clearly?
I have found this to be true.  People don't just go 5-10 faster no matter the speed limit.  If the limit is 75, most people don't go 80 or 85, most people go 75 (many go less).  If you make the limit of 55 on the exact same road, a certain number of people are still going to go 75 and it's going to be a lot more dangerous for everybody.  Some cars and some drivers don't do 70+ mph very well, other cars and drivers and can do 120mph all afternoon.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2009, 12:57:53 AM »

yeah I know, I just kind of made that whole thing up.  it's not like my experiences here in this small corner of the world are representative of anything in the grander scheme of everyone else's, and I wouldn't try to predicate an argument upon it.
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Franzl
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« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2009, 09:11:00 AM »

The laws you mentioned are clearly unreasonable.

I naturally don't drive 65-70 mph when I'm in the U.S., but I've never gotten a ticket either. It's still annoying as hell to constantly fear that a cop might be waiting behind the next curve.

The "21 to drink" thing is even more annoying. Again, I know of many bars and restaurants that will serve me without asking for ID....but it's also annoying as hell to just take your chance in a place you're not familiar with. Sure, the worst that can happen is that you don't get your beer, but it's just plain embarrassing.
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CJK
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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2009, 12:41:02 PM »

Maybe we should legalize robbery and murder too. After all "everyone" breaks those laws. And clearly people who don't rob and kill now won't do so once it's legalized sine they're not that type of person.
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Franzl
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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2009, 12:42:40 PM »

Maybe we should legalize robbery and murder too. After all "everyone" breaks those laws. And clearly people who don't do now won't do so once it's legalized.

Robbery and murder aren't victimless crimes.
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CJK
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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2009, 12:59:20 PM »

Maybe we should legalize robbery and murder too. After all "everyone" breaks those laws. And clearly people who don't do now won't do so once it's legalized.

Robbery and murder aren't victimless crimes.

Going too fast on the road greatly increases the chance of an accident. Allowing drinking before 21 increases drunk driving accidents substantially. Smoking is bad for one's health. Of course none of these things involve direct victimization but society has deemed that the costs of allowing this clearly outway the benefits, which consist mainly of short-term pleasure.
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Franzl
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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2009, 01:01:04 PM »

Maybe we should legalize robbery and murder too. After all "everyone" breaks those laws. And clearly people who don't do now won't do so once it's legalized.

Robbery and murder aren't victimless crimes.

Going too fast on the road greatly increases the chance of an accident. Allowing drinking before 21 increases drunk driving accidents substantially. Smoking is bad for one's health. Of course none of these things involve direct victimization but society has deemed that the costs of allowing this clearly outway the benefits, which consist mainly of short-term pleasure.


Allowing alcohol consumption at all greatly increases the risk of accidents....why draw the line at 21? Why can't we just reinstate prohibition?

And speed limits don't have much effect on accident rates, as evidenced by most other countries that have sensible speed regulations.
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CJK
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« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2009, 01:17:50 PM »

Maybe we should legalize robbery and murder too. After all "everyone" breaks those laws. And clearly people who don't do now won't do so once it's legalized.

Robbery and murder aren't victimless crimes.

Going too fast on the road greatly increases the chance of an accident. Allowing drinking before 21 increases drunk driving accidents substantially. Smoking is bad for one's health. Of course none of these things involve direct victimization but society has deemed that the costs of allowing this clearly outway the benefits, which consist mainly of short-term pleasure.


Allowing alcohol consumption at all greatly increases the risk of accidents....why draw the line at 21? Why can't we just reinstate prohibition?

And speed limits don't have much effect on accident rates, as evidenced by most other countries that have sensible speed regulations.

Prohibition increased organized crime. Younger people are much more likely to be involved in drunk driving than older people.

If you're talking about on the highway, you're right, but on residential streets... no.

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Franzl
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« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2009, 01:23:02 PM »

Maybe we should legalize robbery and murder too. After all "everyone" breaks those laws. And clearly people who don't do now won't do so once it's legalized.

Robbery and murder aren't victimless crimes.

Going too fast on the road greatly increases the chance of an accident. Allowing drinking before 21 increases drunk driving accidents substantially. Smoking is bad for one's health. Of course none of these things involve direct victimization but society has deemed that the costs of allowing this clearly outway the benefits, which consist mainly of short-term pleasure.


Allowing alcohol consumption at all greatly increases the risk of accidents....why draw the line at 21? Why can't we just reinstate prohibition?

And speed limits don't have much effect on accident rates, as evidenced by most other countries that have sensible speed regulations.

Prohibition increased organized crime. Younger people are much more likely to be involved in drunk driving than older people.

If you're talking about on the highway, you're right, but on residential streets... no.



You're certainly right about prohibition, but why should 21 be the limit? Why does every other country manage with a lower limit? And you know perfectly well that very few under 21s (like me when I'm in the U.S.) actually refrain from drinking. Why should a legal adult that can drive, vote, work, sign a contract, own a gun, and fight for his country not be able to have a beer legally?

I accept 18 as a sensible age for being able to purchase alcoholic beverages, as it would then be directly tied to the age of majority.
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Jake
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« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2009, 01:25:02 PM »

Going too fast on the road greatly increases the chance of an accident. Allowing drinking before 21 increases drunk driving accidents substantially. Smoking is bad for one's health. Of course none of these things involve direct victimization but society has deemed that the costs of allowing this clearly outway the benefits, which consist mainly of short-term pleasure.

Speed limits haven't been increased in 30+ years while vehicle safety has increased exponentially during that same period. A speed limit of 75mph for sealed two-lane highways under normal driving conditions is perfectly safe. It's pretty funny that we rely on thirty year old laws to determine what speed is "too fast" rather than science.

Allowing underage drinking does not increase DUI rates. People driving while intoxicated increases DUI rates. Just because someone is drinking underage does not mean they are going to drive more often than those 21+. Seeing that, there is no reason to deny alcohol to under 21s just because of that.

Smoking pot is bad for you, yes. But so is drinking, smoking cigarettes, and eating unhealthy food. None of that is universally banned.

Please stop acting like a sheep.

As for the question, it'd be nice for common sense to determine our laws. There isn't a meaningful reason to prohibit alcohol to those under 21. There also isn't a meaningful reason to prohibit marijuana use while not prohibiting alcohol. Alchohol is a stronger drug and is more dangerous (in terms of the effects of over-consumption). Speed limits are simply ridiculous on highways. There is a reason for 25mph speed limits in towns/cities; there is no scientific reason for a sealed highway to have a 65mph speed limit. It's purely a revenue source.

I'd like a cite on under 21s being more likely to DUI than those 21+. Those drinking in bars have much more incentive to drive drunk than those not drinking in bars.
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Mechaman
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« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2009, 01:31:49 PM »

Get rid of all laws except those dealing with murder, injury, rape (lower the Age of Consent to at least 11), and theft (that includes white collar crimes).
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Ronnie
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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2009, 01:32:50 PM »

When I travel to Vegas via freeway, I can easily go over 100 m/ph and not get caught by the police, even when the speed limit is 75.
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CJK
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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2009, 01:42:27 PM »

Maybe we should legalize robbery and murder too. After all "everyone" breaks those laws. And clearly people who don't do now won't do so once it's legalized.

Robbery and murder aren't victimless crimes.

Going too fast on the road greatly increases the chance of an accident. Allowing drinking before 21 increases drunk driving accidents substantially. Smoking is bad for one's health. Of course none of these things involve direct victimization but society has deemed that the costs of allowing this clearly outway the benefits, which consist mainly of short-term pleasure.


Allowing alcohol consumption at all greatly increases the risk of accidents....why draw the line at 21? Why can't we just reinstate prohibition?

And speed limits don't have much effect on accident rates, as evidenced by most other countries that have sensible speed regulations.

Prohibition increased organized crime. Younger people are much more likely to be involved in drunk driving than older people.

If you're talking about on the highway, you're right, but on residential streets... no.



You're certainly right about prohibition, but why should 21 be the limit? Why does every other country manage with a lower limit? And you know perfectly well that very few under 21s (like me when I'm in the U.S.) actually refrain from drinking. Why should a legal adult that can drive, vote, work, sign a contract, own a gun, and fight for his country not be able to have a beer legally?

I accept 18 as a sensible age for being able to purchase alcoholic beverages, as it would then be directly tied to the age of majority.

It's true 21 is a rather arbitrary number. But if anything it should be raised, not lowered.

Comparing drinking beer to driving, voting, working, and military service just degrades the latter. No one needs to drink beer, we do need transportation, responsive government, income, and national defense.

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Franzl
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« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2009, 01:44:01 PM »

Maybe we should legalize robbery and murder too. After all "everyone" breaks those laws. And clearly people who don't do now won't do so once it's legalized.

Robbery and murder aren't victimless crimes.

Going too fast on the road greatly increases the chance of an accident. Allowing drinking before 21 increases drunk driving accidents substantially. Smoking is bad for one's health. Of course none of these things involve direct victimization but society has deemed that the costs of allowing this clearly outway the benefits, which consist mainly of short-term pleasure.


Allowing alcohol consumption at all greatly increases the risk of accidents....why draw the line at 21? Why can't we just reinstate prohibition?

And speed limits don't have much effect on accident rates, as evidenced by most other countries that have sensible speed regulations.

Prohibition increased organized crime. Younger people are much more likely to be involved in drunk driving than older people.

If you're talking about on the highway, you're right, but on residential streets... no.



You're certainly right about prohibition, but why should 21 be the limit? Why does every other country manage with a lower limit? And you know perfectly well that very few under 21s (like me when I'm in the U.S.) actually refrain from drinking. Why should a legal adult that can drive, vote, work, sign a contract, own a gun, and fight for his country not be able to have a beer legally?

I accept 18 as a sensible age for being able to purchase alcoholic beverages, as it would then be directly tied to the age of majority.

It's true 21 is a rather arbitrary number. But if anything it should be raised, not lowered.

Comparing drinking beer to driving, voting, working, and military service just degrades the latter. No one needs to drink beer, we do need transportation, responsive government, income, and national defense.



I don't like the state telling me what is necessary or unnecessary. Perhaps you do.
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CJK
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« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2009, 02:34:34 PM »


Speed limits haven't been increased in 30+ years while vehicle safety has increased exponentially during that same period. A speed limit of 75mph for sealed two-lane highways under normal driving conditions is perfectly safe. It's pretty funny that we rely on thirty year old laws to determine what speed is "too fast" rather than science.


But we are not just talking about highways. We're talking about the speed limit in general.


Allowing underage drinking does not increase DUI rates. People driving while intoxicated increases DUI rates. Just because someone is drinking underage does not mean they are going to drive more often than those 21+. Seeing that, there is no reason to deny alcohol to under 21s just because of that.


Of course, but enabling it further will worsen the situation. "Just because you have a bazooka doesn't mean you're going to harm people with it."


Smoking pot is bad for you, yes. But so is drinking, smoking cigarettes, and eating unhealthy food. None of that is universally banned.


I'm not familiar with the reason that pot is considered worse than alcohol. But most people think the pot ban should be maintained because the benefits outway the costs. If we legalize it should be because there's a new public consensus, not because "everyone breaks" the law.


Please stop acting like a sheep.


The smart sheep were the ones in the herd that stuck together. The dumb sheep were the ones who strayed off the path because they though it was hip and cool--only to be eaten by the wolf.


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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2009, 02:36:08 PM »

The smart sheep were the ones in the herd that stuck together. The dumb sheep were the ones who strayed off the path because they though it was hip and cool--only to be eaten by the wolf.

probably the most pathetic attempted allegory I have ever heard on a variety of levels
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CJK
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« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2009, 02:36:33 PM »


I don't like the state telling me what is necessary or unnecessary. Perhaps you do.

I don't need the state to tell me either. Anyone with common sense should know.
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Franzl
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« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2009, 02:37:07 PM »

Common sense doesn't appear to be your strength.
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