What should be done about laws that everyone breaks?

[CJK]

Common sense doesn't appear to be your strength.

Says the guy who apparently thinks drinking a beer is as important as driving, voting, and working.

I won't respond to any more of your posts if your purpose is just to insult me.

[Franzl]

Common sense doesn't appear to be your strength.

Says the guy who apparently thinks drinking a beer is as important as driving, voting, and working.

I won't respond to any more of your posts if your purpose is just to insult me.

lol, that's an easy way out, isn't it?

I never stated that drinking beer is as "important" as the things you mentioned. I simply stated that prohibition for people under 21 is illogical, and doesn't really have any positive effects. The U.S. is the one of the only countries to have a drinking age higher than the age of majority. Many European countries' drinking ages are lower than 18.

I don't consider something to be right just because it's the current law, as you appear to think.

[CJK]

Common sense doesn't appear to be your strength.

Says the guy who apparently thinks drinking a beer is as important as driving, voting, and working.

I won't respond to any more of your posts if your purpose is just to insult me.

lol, that's an easy way out, isn't it?

I never stated that drinking beer is as "important" as the things you mentioned. I simply stated that prohibition for people under 21 is illogical, and doesn't really have any positive effects. The U.S. is the one of the only countries to have a drinking age higher than the age of majority. Many European countries' drinking ages are lower than 18.

I don't consider something to be right just because it's the current law, as you appear to think.

It's well documented that it has saved lives. But that's not the point. The point is that most people support it because they believe that less young people drinking is preferable to more accidents. If you want to overturn it you need public opinion on your side. It shouldn't be overturned just because "everyone breaks it".

[Franzl]

Common sense doesn't appear to be your strength.

Says the guy who apparently thinks drinking a beer is as important as driving, voting, and working.

I won't respond to any more of your posts if your purpose is just to insult me.

lol, that's an easy way out, isn't it?

I never stated that drinking beer is as "important" as the things you mentioned. I simply stated that prohibition for people under 21 is illogical, and doesn't really have any positive effects. The U.S. is the one of the only countries to have a drinking age higher than the age of majority. Many European countries' drinking ages are lower than 18.

I don't consider something to be right just because it's the current law, as you appear to think.

It's well documented that it has saved lives. But that's not the point. The point is that most people support it because they believe that less young people drinking is preferable to more accidents. If you want to overturn it you need public opinion on your side. It shouldn't be overturned just because "everyone breaks it".

You're going around in circles here. You're seriously using public opinion as an argument? That's pretty dangerous in my opinion, to claim that something is correct simply because most people think it's correct.

I don't believe that the drinking age has very much to do with accident rates. As previously stated, other countries manage....or are you saying that Americans simply can't drive?

[Vepres]

The drinking age law is stupid. In fact, the Boulder police chief (Boulder is a college town) said it's not worth enforcing the under 21 drinking laws, and they could use their time to stop drunk drivers and the like.

When in a car, despite what a social libertarian might tell you, you really should have fewer rights. Why? Because irresponsible driving can increase the chances you'll hurt or even kill another.

[CJK]

Common sense doesn't appear to be your strength.

Says the guy who apparently thinks drinking a beer is as important as driving, voting, and working.

I won't respond to any more of your posts if your purpose is just to insult me.

lol, that's an easy way out, isn't it?

I never stated that drinking beer is as "important" as the things you mentioned. I simply stated that prohibition for people under 21 is illogical, and doesn't really have any positive effects. The U.S. is the one of the only countries to have a drinking age higher than the age of majority. Many European countries' drinking ages are lower than 18.

I don't consider something to be right just because it's the current law, as you appear to think.

It's well documented that it has saved lives. But that's not the point. The point is that most people support it because they believe that less young people drinking is preferable to more accidents. If you want to overturn it you need public opinion on your side. It shouldn't be overturned just because "everyone breaks it".

You're going around in circles here. You're seriously using public opinion as an argument? That's pretty dangerous in my opinion, to claim that something is correct simply because most people think it's correct.

I don't believe that the drinking age has very much to do with accident rates. As previously stated, other countries manage....or are you saying that Americans simply can't drive?

I think we are getting sidetracked. All I'm trying to say is that if you want to lower the drinking age you should present a valid reason for doing so and not just because "everyone breaks it" or even the "I can do x,y,z too" canard. The reason we have this law is because the perceived benefit is greater than the perceived cost. The only reason to scrap it would be if the costs are demonstrated to exceed the benefits. (Which isn't too convincing http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/08/health/research/08safe.html?scp=6&sq=drinking+age+deaths&st=nyt)

[Jake]

But we are not just talking about highways. We're talking about the speed limit in general.

Uh, I'm talking about speed limits in general. If there are areas where they are too low, raise them. I don't think anyone is advocating an across the board 10 mph increase, but some roads could absorb a 15-20mph increase and still be safe to drive on. The problem is speed limit legislation hasn't be altered in 30 years.

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I'd argue that legalizing alcohol consumption for 18-20s would increase the safety of them drinking. They'll be less apt to conceal drinking, meaning help will be requested sooner for those who have consumed too much and they'll be better supervised. Whether someone is 18 and legally drunk  or 18 and illegally drunk, if they want to drive, they're going to drive. The fact one is illegally drunk is not going to change the decision process.

I'll also add that the amount of high-risk (unsupervised, to excess,etc.) drinking 18-20s do wouldn't increase, it'd probably decrease. If you can only rarely drink, you're going to drink more. If you're able to drink whenever you want, you'll be less apt to over-consume.

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Public consensus is a terrible way to make laws. It's what kept segregation legal for 100 years after slavery, what still denies marriage rights to homosexuals in 45 odd states, etc. For laws regulating "drugs", I'd rather science decides whether something is too harmful to regularly consume (ie, cocaine, heroin, etc.) or just trust everyone to police what they consume. I'd prefer the former, but the latter is more acceptable than prosecuting those who smoke marijuana as if they're destroying society.

Whether or not people think the benefits of a marijuana ban outweigh the costs of such a ban,
 it's clear that they don't. The US Government spends billions enforcing a War on Drugs and is still powerless to control marijuana. That money can be better spent not destroying peoples' lives by imprisoning them for the terrible act of selling a few bags of pot.

Sorry for the insult.

[Jake]

I think we are getting sidetracked. All I'm trying to say is that if you want to lower the drinking age you should present a valid reason for doing so and not just because "everyone breaks it" or even the "I can do x,y,z too" canard. The reason we have this law is because the perceived benefit is greater than the perceived cost. The only reason to scrap it would be if the costs are demonstrated to exceed the benefits. (Which isn't too convincing http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/08/health/research/08safe.html?scp=6&sq=drinking+age+deaths&st=nyt)

Notice that neither Franzl or I has used the initial premise of the thread as a reason to legalizing underage drinking.

[Franzl]

I think we are getting sidetracked. All I'm trying to say is that if you want to lower the drinking age you should present a valid reason for doing so and not just because "everyone breaks it" or even the "I can do x,y,z too" canard. The reason we have this law is because the perceived benefit is greater than the perceived cost. The only reason to scrap it would be if the costs are demonstrated to exceed the benefits. (Which isn't too convincing http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/08/health/research/08safe.html?scp=6&sq=drinking+age+deaths&st=nyt)

Notice that neither Franzl or I has used the initial premise of the thread as a reason to legalizing underage drinking.

One interesting thing is that the typical minimum ages for drinking and those for driving are practically reversed in Europe. It's a common argument here in Germany, at least, that being legally able to drink 2 years before getting a drivers license (well...it's one year these days with "learners' permits") allows one to become accustomed to drinking and the effects of having a couple of drinks....which in theory is supposed to keep people from drinking and driving once they're legally allowed to drive.

Of course...I'm not sure how true that is in practice, considering that almost every American teenager has had alcohol before despite drinking laws.

Although I think you're certainly right in saying that "legal" drinking would make teenagers more responsible...by allowing them to consume 1-2 drinks in a bar or restaurant and not having to "get the most" out of drinking on some Saturday night just because it's one of the few times they have access to alcohol. The general drinking mentality is important, and I get the feeling in the U.S. among many young people that they drink primarily to get drunk. I think this, as you suggested, is partially a result of wanting to abuse the "forbidden fruit", so to say.

[opebo]

There doesn't seem to be any speed limit here, or anyway its totally unenforced.  That said I only go about 60-70 kilometers per hour.. what's that in real measurements?  Not sure my speedometer is correct though.

[Jake]

There doesn't seem to be any speed limit here, or anyway its totally unenforced.  That said I only go about 60-70 kilometers per hour.. what's that in real measurements?  Not sure my speedometer is correct though.

High 30s-Low 40s.

[Vepres]

One interesting thing is that the typical minimum ages for drinking and those for driving are practically reversed in Europe.

The reason Americans can get a license at 16 is because cities aren't as compact as in Europe. You can practically walk anywhere in European city (or so I've heard) that you need to go. It's different in the US where, because of our geographic size, everything is farther apart and cities themselves are larger geographically. Just some thoughts.

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Actually, I think it's only 3/4 of high school students who have had an alcoholic drink. But keep in mind, only 28% have had a drink within a month of the survey I am citing, which probably means they tried it a few times and then the novelty wore off for most of them.

Franzl, I'm curious as to your opinion on the idea that, because you have to be 21 to drink alcohol, you have 21 year olds buying drinks for 18 year olds, instead of 18 year olds buy drinks for 15 year olds.

[Scam of God]

Get rid of them all.

[Jake]

Franzl, I'm curious as to your opinion on the idea that, because you have to be 21 to drink alcohol, you have 21 year olds buying drinks for 18 year olds, instead of 18 year olds buy drinks for 15 year olds.

I've found there's enough aversion to buying alcohol for minors among 21 year olds buying for 18 year olds that reducing the age to 18 would reduce purchases of alcohol for minors. It's much more likely that 21s will view 18/19/20s as peers (which is the important thing; seeing someone as a peer means you'll trust their judgement) than 18s will view freshman or sophomores as peers. Certainly raising penalties (and publicizing it) would dissuade many teens from purchasing it for other teens.

[Franzl]

Franzl, I'm curious as to your opinion on the idea that, because you have to be 21 to drink alcohol, you have 21 year olds buying drinks for 18 year olds, instead of 18 year olds buy drinks for 15 year olds.

I wouldn't see a problem with that, to be perfectly honest.

[Franzl]

One interesting thing is that the typical minimum ages for drinking and those for driving are practically reversed in Europe.

The reason Americans can get a license at 16 is because cities aren't as compact as in Europe. You can practically walk anywhere in European city (or so I've heard) that you need to go. It's different in the US where, because of our geographic size, everything is farther apart and cities themselves are larger geographically. Just some thoughts.

I understand the apparent reasons for getting a license when you're young in the U.S. I sure know I'd need a car if I lived back in Alton, IL right now as I did for 10 years in my earlier life.

I don't know if it's really because you can "walk" within cities in Europe....even if that's true to an extent, there are still lots of (for European standards) "rural" areas where you wouldn't be able to walk. I'd say a far superior public transportation system is the main reason under 18s don't necessarily need to drive a car.

At any rate, I'm not really interested in the reasons for getting a license or not getting one. I was just making a point about the relation between the driving and drinking age, for whatever reason.

[RIP Robert H Bork]

Name one.

[Earth]

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Either change them to an acceptable level, or do away with them.