20th Century Political History Makers Survivor: now open, in History board !
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  20th Century Political History Makers Survivor: now open, in History board !
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Author Topic: 20th Century Political History Makers Survivor: now open, in History board !  (Read 4698 times)
big bad fab
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« on: July 22, 2009, 06:49:35 PM »
« edited: August 27, 2009, 03:16:47 AM by big bad fab »

I intend to begin a big Survivor this September (I’ll wait for the end of World Leaders Survivor):
“20th Century History Makers Survivor”.

To begin with, it will have 300 leaders in 6 groups, then 120 in 4 groups, then 40 in 2 groups, then 20 for the final list.
Granted, 300 are a lot (this Survivor will take almost 3 months), but I first picked about 240-250 leaders who weren’t debatable from my viewpoint, but the list was too “political”. So, I added leaders, one by one, to reach 270-280, and then decided to have a round count.

Another reason is that English is not my native language (as you may have guessed ! Grin ), so it’s difficult for me to contribute to Atlasia beyond voting and discussing (I mean, I can’t write laws, despite the fact I use and apply laws and write judgements all the time in my job). So, what big project is left for us, bad-writing aliens ?
As I haven’t the patience of fantastic mappers of this site (especially the best of them, Hashemite), I just make polls, what ifs and survivors.

During this survivor, there will be some weird rules in almost every 3 rounds: immunity, split votes, double votes, votes to bring back a leader, etc. But not during the final rounds.
In case of a tie, the first criteria will be the total of votes received in previous rounds; if there’s still a tie, I’ll decide alone like the worst of dictators (hem, not exactly, see below).

As for the lists themselves:

1) Preliminary note:
I first wanted that everyone would vote considering one’s influence, good or bad, on history.
But it would have been, of course, impossible to implement, as it’s a subjective concept.
And that may have entailed a high score (or even victory) for Hitler, to take the most obvious example. And how acknowledging easily that Reagan should win over Clinton or Trotski over Reagan ?

So, even though I intend to give this title of “XXth Century History Makers”, everybody will be free to vote as he wants. It’s only when there will be ties that I’ll try to pick the one that had the most influence on XXth century history, whatever his political leaning and even if he’s a dictator.

What I just want to say (and what I will repeat) is that I ask everybody to try to be at least a bit objective, to try to take a historical viewpoint and not to judge through a PRESENT view and only with this RIGHT-LEFT divide.
Gorbachev was a communist and is still a left socialist but everybody can acknowledge he let East European countries go and Soviet Republics also without big bloodbath. Adenauer was a conservative but he rebuilt and smoothered Germany after WW2. Mossadegh was on the left but he acted above all in his country’s interest. De Gaulle was a conservative but he allowed some French not to have only a government which was an awful puppet of Germany.

I hope each of us can acknowledge these facts.
As for me, I tried to control my right-leaning and was not afraid to pick leftists like Sartre (OMG) or Gramsci (and even an anarchist with Nestor Makhno) or guys used by leftists like Tobin, or to pick many leftist African leaders, or to pick Muslim thinkers or leaders (al-Banna, Qutb, Maududi, Tourabi, whereas there is only one pope in my list !).
I hope everyone will try to control his leaning, just to make things be more intesresting and less “simple”.

2) The criteria of “history making” is of course the most important in the list I’ve built. And you can “make history” even when you fail (Chamberlain) or when you do nothing at all except frozing everything (Brezhnev). To do nothing is still doing something in History, is still shaping or making History or letting others make History.

First of all, I obviously and mostly picked political leaders.
“Great” leaders (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, FDR, Churchill, etc), even of middle or small countries (Atatürk, Salazar, Pol Pot, Walesa, etc.),
leaders of “great” countries, even if they weren’t Nr.1 (Béria, Lin Biao, Himmler, etc.),
“great” leaders on the national scene, if not on the global one (Yuan Shikaï, Vargas, Trudeau, Giolitti, etc),
leaders who are “great” because of their influence on the global scene or because they are symbols (Mossadegh, Nkrumah, Peron, Jan Masaryk, Idi Amin Dada, each in one different way, etc).

From this viewpoint, maybe the Third World (and especially African, Arab and Muslim leaders) is a bit over-represented. Of course, the XXth century is the century of WWs, of the Soivet Union, of the United States global power, of the EU, but it’s also the century of Cold War -and Cold War in the Third World (hence Savimbi, Nujoma, etc)- and of rebellions, revolts, guerilla wars and end of colonization (hence symbols as Amilcar Cabral, Lumumba, Abd El-Krim, Modibo Keita, etc).

I’ve included leaders in international organizations, especially within the UN and the EU (“makers” or “fathers”: Spaak, Monnet, Robert Schuman, etc), but also within “ideological” organizations (Zinoviev, e.g.). I especially checked inside the UN, the EU, NATO, IMF, World Bank.

I’ve also included military leaders (with a priority with military leaders with a direct political dimension: Ike, McArthur, Tojo, Zhukov; but also with indirect political dimension through strategic evolutions or symbolism: Tirpitz, Giap, e.g.).

I’ve also included other leaders, provided they have an influence on political history (I picked some among Nobel prizes lists, but also far beyond them, of course):
- leaders of non-political organizations but with political dimension (Samaranch, e.g.),
- economists with influence on public policies (Keynes, Friedman, Tobin, etc),
- businessmen who were symbols of some great trends of capitalism and consuming society (Ford, Rockefeller, Sam Walton, Bill Gates, etc)
- philosophers and writers with direct political influence or even having acted themselves (Gramsci, Arendt, Sartre, Qutb, Orwell, etc),
- scientists and technicians with political influence or who were symbols of political rivalries (Oppenheimer, von Braun, Gagarin, etc),
- religious men with political influence (Dalaï Lama, John Paul II, Hassan al-Banna, Billy Graham, etc),
- humanitarian and social leaders with political or international influence, or who were symbols (MLK, Mother Teresa, Sean McBride, etc),
- wives of political leaders (no Eleanor Rossevelt, but 2 famous Chinese...),
- pure symbols (“Che” Guevara, Stauffenberg, Landsbergis as a symbol of “nationalities” inside the USSR, Gavrilo Princip because WWI shaped the whole XXth century, even Kim Philby as symbol of the Spy War).



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big bad fab
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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2009, 06:50:28 PM »

3) The problem of time limits is solved by the criteria that main or biggest part of their public life must have taken place during the XXth century, hence Bin Laden, Koizumi, Henry Dunant or Theodor Herzl aren’t in the list and Franz Joseph I or Mugabe are in the list.

4) Choices inside countries are always debatable (Gowon in Nigeria but not Babangida, Obasanjo, Abacha,...; Mitterrand but not Pompidou or Giscard, Erhard but not Schmidt, Menem but not Alfonsin, etc), but I’ve done the work, so I decide ! In fact, I always tried to pick the one(s) who was (were) more important also on the international scene or for “ideological” reasons (“Menemism” as a new Peronism but also Menem as a hidden economic liberal; Mitterrand “l’Européen”; Gowon because of Biafra war, Erhard because of “Soziale Marktwirstschaft”, etc.).
And, please, keep in mind that our own opinion must be put aside: you may prefer Schnmidt to Erhard and maybe Schmidt was even a better manager than Erhard, but Schmidt was only that, a (not so bad) manager. As for me, I don’t like Mitterrand at all, but, politically and internationally speaking, he was more important than Giscard and even than Pompidou (more debatable...).

5) There may be too much leaders from middle or small countries, particularly middle powers not very influent ( Wink ) during the XXth century, but that can’t be ignored (Canada, Australia, Brazil, Mexico, etc).
But, as with Third World Leaders in general, I also tried to make a diversified list, to make it more interesting.

Businessmen picks may be artifical but it’s hard to pick individualities when you want to symbolize great trends in global economy and politics.

6) Between groups and inside each group, I tried to reach a balance between:
- countries and continents (in order not to have all the Canadians in one group, all the Italians in another, etc.),
- dictators/democrats/uncertain leaders,
- decades of climax of each leader (sure, for people like Kim Il-Sung or Hiro-Hito or Castro, it may be difficult to say...)
- between left and right (it was a secondary criteria; besides, with Third World leaders, it was sometimes odd to decide whether nationalism is leftist or rightist, e.g.).

I also tried to avoid renewing historical confrontations or “duets”: Aquino/Marcos, Stalin/Trotski, Sadat/Begin, Mandela/de Klerk, or close associations (Hitler/Himmler/Goering/Hess, Khrushchev/Malenkov/Béria, Porfirio Diaz/Zapata, etc.).

It’s the only weakness of Hughento’s present World Leaders Survivor: groups weren’t balanced at all. That’s a real problem (the problem of random in his case).

During stages 2 and 3, when groups are redesigned, I will proceed in the same way, at least with the criterias of countries, dictators/democrats, of decades. It will be more difficult to balance with left/right and to avoid rebuilding historical fightings. We will see: it will also depend on results !
It’s better than randomize this thing. Of course, some of you won’t be satisfied, but I decide and I think you may see with the 6 groups of stage 1 that I’ve done all I could to balance the groups.


Last but not least, you see I’ve posted this topic in the International General Discussion thread. There are some reasons:
- volume of traffic: the History thread is less visited,
- “content” of traffic: the History thread is in a US section, even if it’s used for some non-US topics,
- the latest big Survivor, this very fine World Leaders by Hughento, is in the International General Discussion and it’s easier to reach likely future posters.

So, now, I’m open to all ideas:
a- on other leaders to include,
b- on leaders to put out (let's say I can change around ten names),
c- on groups’ equilibrium,
d- on rules (things you don't want to see or rules you would like to see),
e- on the location of this topic inside the forum,
f- on the title (!),
g- on any other theme,

even though I’ll be the only one to decide eventually.
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big bad fab
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2009, 06:52:06 PM »

Group one may be :

1.   Corazon   Aquino   (Philippines)
2.   Neil   Armstrong   (USA)
3.   Mustafa Kemal   Atatürk   (Turkey)
4.   Clement   Attlee   (UK)
5.   James   Baker   (USA)
6.   Siad   Barre   (Somalia)
7.   Enrico   Berlinguer   (Italy)
8.   Moshe   Dayan   (Israel)
9.      Deng Xiaoping   (China)
10.   Albert   Einstein   (Germany)
11.   Boris   Eltsin   (Russia)
12.   Milton   Friedman   (USA)
13.   Bill   Gates   (USA)
14.   Hans-Dietrich   Genscher   (West Germany)
15.   Vo Nguyen   Giap   (Vietnam)
16.   Billy   Graham   (USA)
17.   Dag   Hammarskjöld   (Sweden)
18.   Heinrich   Himmler   (Germany)
19.   Herbert   Hoover   (USA)
20.   Miklos   Horthy   (Hungary)
21.   Enver   Hoxha   (Albania)
22.   King   Hussein of Jordan   (Jordan)
23.   Jean   Jaurès   (France)
24.   Muhammad Ali   Jinnah   (Pakistan)
25.   John Fitzgerald   Kennedy   (USA)
26.   Vytautas   Landsbergis   (Lithuania)
27.   Douglas   MacArthur   (USA)
28.   Ahmad Shah   Massoud   (Afghanistan)
29.   Pierre   Mendès-France   (France)
30.      Mengistu Haile Mariam   (Ethiopia)
31.   Joshua   Nkomo   (Zimbabwe)
32.   Manuel   Noriega   (Panama)
33.   Mohammad Reza Shah   Pahlavi   (Iran)
34.   George   Papandreou   (Greece)
35.      Park Chung-Hee   (South Korea)
36.   Lester Bowles   Pearson   (Canada)
37.   Kim   Philby   (UK)
38.   Sayyid   Qutb   (Egypt)
39.   Walter   Rathenau   (Germany)
40.   Andreï   Sakharov   (USSR)
41.   Antonio de Oliveiro   Salazar   (Portugal)
42.   Ahmed   Sékou Touré   (Guinea)
43.      Soong May-Ling   (China)
44.   Josef Dzhugashvili   Stalin   (USSR)
45.   Pyotr   Stolypin   (Russia)
46.   Kakuei   Tanaka   (Japan)
47.   Josip Broz   Tito   (Yugoslavia)
48.   Walter   Ulbricht   (East Germany)
49.   Emiliano   Zapata   (Mexico)
50.   Grigori   Zinoviev   (USSR)
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2009, 06:52:56 PM »

Group two may be:

1.   Dean   Acheson   (USA)
2.   Oscar   Arias Sanchez   (Costa Rica)
3.   Hafez al-   Assad   (Syria)
4.   Fulgencio   Batista   (Cuba)
5.   Lavrenti   Beria   (USSR)
6.   Zulfikar Ali   Bhutto   (Pakistan)
7.   Tony   Blair   (UK)
8.   Jean-Bedel   Bokassa   (Central Africa)
9.   Boutros   Boutros-Ghali   (Egypt)
10.   Bill   Clinton   (USA)
11.   Charles   de Gaulle   (France)
12.   Anthony   Eden   (UK)
13.   Francisco   Franco y Bahamonde   (Spain)
14.   Mikhail   Gorbachev   (USSR)
15.   Bob   Hawke   (Australia)
16.   Adolf   Hitler   (Germany)
17.   Wojciech   Jaruzelski   (Poland)
18.      Jiang Qing   (China)
19.   Constantine   Karamanlis   (Greece)
20.   Modibo   Keita   (Mali)
21.   Aleksandr   Kerensky   (Russia)
22.   John Maynard   Keynes   (UK)
23.   Abraham Isaac   Kook   (Israel)
24.   Bruno   Kreisky   (Austria)
25.   Thomas   Lawrence   (UK)
26.   Carl Gustaf Emil   Mannerheim   (Finland)
27.   Ferdinand   Marcos   (Philippines)
28.   Tomas   Masaryk   (Czechoslovakia)
29.   Syed Abul Aala   Maududi   (Pakistan)
30.   Golda   Meir   (Israel)
31.   Henry   Morgenthau Jr   (USA)
32.   Mohammad   Mossadegh   (Iran)
33.      Ne Win   (Burma)
34.   Jawaharlal   Nehru   (India)
35.   Agostinho   Neto   (Angola)
36.   Gaafar   Nimeiry   (Sudan)
37.   Kwame   Nkrumah   (Ghana)
38.   Ian   Palach   (Czechoslovakia)
39.   Raymond   Poincaré   (France)
40.   Saloth Sar   Pol Pot   (Cambodia)
41.   Jan-Christiaan   Smuts   (South Africa)
42.   Paul-Henri   Spaak   (Belgium)
43.   Gustav   Stresemann   (Germany)
44.   Mother   Teresa   (Albania)
45.   Alfred von   Tirpitz   (Germany)
46.   James   Tobin   (USA)
47.   Pierre-Elliott   Trudeau   (Canada)
48.   Elie   Wiesel   (USA)
49.      Yuan Shikai   (China)
50.   Georgy   Zhukov   (USSR)
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2009, 06:53:45 PM »

Group three may be:

1.      Abdullah I of Jordan   (Jordan)
2.   Giulio   Andreotti   (Italy)
3.   Iouri   Andropov   (USSR)
4.   Ion   Antonescu   (Romania)
5.   Hannah   Arendt   (USA)
6.      Aung San Suu Kyi   (Burma)
7.   Arthur   Balfour   (UK)
8.   Willy   Brandt   (West Germany)
9.   Amilcar   Cabral   (Guinea Bissau)
10.   Neville   Chamberlain   (UK)
11.   Georges   Clemenceau   (France)
12.   Frederik   de Klerk   (South Africa)
13.   Georgi   Dimitrov   (Bulgaria)
14.   Alexander   Dubcek   (Czechoslovakia)
15.   John Foster   Dulles   (USA)
16.   Ismail   Enver Pasha   (Turkey)
17.   Ludwig   Erhard   (West Germany)
18.      Franz-Joseph I   (Austria)
19.   Indira   Gandhi   (India)
20.   Ernesto Che   Guevara   (Argentina)
21.      Haile Sélassie   (Ethiopia)
22.   Erich   Honecker   (East Germany)
23.   Janos   Kadar   (Hungary)
24.   Ruhollah   Khomeini   (Iran)
25.   Martin Luther   King   (USA)
26.      Liu Shaoqi   (China)
27.   Patrice   Lumumba   (Congo)
28.   Sean   MacBride   (UK)
29.   William   Mackenzie King   (Canada)
30.      Mahathir bin Mohamad   (Malaysia)
31.      Mao Zedong   (China)
32.   Joseph   McCarthy   (USA)
33.   Harold   McMillan   (UK)
34.   Andrew   Mellon   (USA)
35.   Carlos   Menem   (Argentina)
36.      Mohammed V of Morocco   (Morocco)
37.   Robert   Mugabe   (Zimbabwe)
38.   Robert   Oppenheimer   (USA)
39.   Daniel   Ortega   (Nicaragua)
40.   John   Pershing   (USA)
41.   Abdul Karim   Qassim   (Iraq)
42.   Theodore   Roosevelt   (USA)
43.   Mario   Soares   (Portugal)
44.   Alfredo   Stroessner   (Paraguay)
45.   Charles   Taylor   (Liberia)
46.   Hideki   Tojo   (Japan)
47.   Hassan al-   Tourabi   (Sudan)
48.   Getulio   Vargas   (Brazil)
49.   Lech   Walesa   (Poland)
50.   Woodrow   Wilson   (USA)
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2009, 06:54:28 PM »

Group four may be:

1.      Abd el-Krim   (Morocco)
2.   Konrad   Adenauer   (West Germany)
3.   Yasser   Arafat   (Palestine)
4.   Menahem   Begin   (Israel)
5.   Ahmed   Ben Bella   (Algeria)
6.   Benazir   Bhutto   (Pakistan)
7.   Wernher von   Braun   (USA)
8.   René   Cassin   (France)
9.   Michael   Collins   (Ireland)
10.   Jacques   Delors   (France)
11.   Porfirio   Diaz   (Mexico)
12.   Dwight   Eisenhower   (USA)
13.   Hussein Mohammed   Ershad   (Bengladesh)
14.   Mohandas   Gandhi   (India)
15.   Wladyslaw   Gomulka   (Poland)
16.   Yakubu   Gowon   (Nigeria)
17.   Friedrich von   Hayek   (UK)
18.   Jean   Jaurès   (France)
19.      Juan Carlos I of Spain   (Spain)
20.   Henry   Kissinger   (USA)
21.   Vladimir Ulyanov   Lenin   (USSR)
22.      Lin Biao   (China)
23.   David   Lloyd George   (UK)
24.   Nestor   Makhno   (Ukraine)
25.   Nelson   Mandela   (South Africa)
26.   Robert   Menzies   (Australia)
27.   Vyacheslav   Molotov   (USSR)
28.   Imre   Nagy   (Hungary)
29.   Richard   Nixon   (USA)
30.   Julius   Nyerere   (Tanzania)
31.   Philippe   Pétain   (France)
32.   Jozef   Pilsudski   (Poland)
33.   Augusto   Pinochet Ugarte   (Chile)
34.   Muammar al-   Qaddafi   (Libya)
35.   Jerry   Rawlings   (Ghana)
36.   John Davison   Rockefeller   (USA)
37.   Juan Antonio   Samaranch   (Spain)
38.   Abdul-Aziz Ibn   Saoud   (Saudi Arabia)
39.   Jonas   Savimbi   (Angola)
40.   Léopold Sédar   Senghor   (Senegal)
41.   Edvard   Shevardnadze   (USSR)
42.   Norodom   Sihanouk   (Cambodia)
43.   Aleksandr   Solzhenitsyn   (USSR)
44.   Henry   Stimson   (USA)
45.   Kusno Sosrodihardjo   Sukarno   (Indonesia)
46.      Syngman Rhee   (South Korea)
47.   Margaret   Thatcher   (UK)
48.   Eleftherios   Venizelos   (Greece)
49.   Sam   Walton   (USA)
50.   Isoroku   Yamamoto   (Japan)
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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2009, 06:54:53 PM »

Very interesting idea.
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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2009, 06:55:30 PM »

Group five may be:

1.   Mohamad Farah   Aidid   (Somalia)
2.   Kofi   Annan   (Ghana)
3.   Robert   Baden-Powell   (UK)
4.   Edvard   Benes   (Czechoslovakia)
5.   Habib   Bourguiba   (Tunisia)
6.   Leonid   Brezhnev   (USSR)
7.   Aristide   Briand   (France)
8.   Nikolai   Bukharin   (USSR)
9.   Lazaro   Cardenas   (Mexico)
10.   Fidel   Castro   (Cuba)
11.   Tenzin Gyatso   Dalai Lama   (China)
12.   Eamon   De Valera   (Ireland)
13.   Allen   Dulles   (USA)
14.   Henry   Ford   (USA)
15.   Malcolm   Fraser   (Australia)
16.   Alberto   Fujimori   (Peru)
17.   Yuri   Gagarin   (USSR)
18.   Hermann   Goering   (Germany)
19.      Ho Chi Minh   (Vietnam)
20.   John Edgar   Hoover   (USA)
21.   Saddam   Hussein   (Iraq)
22.      Kim Il-Sung   (North Korea)
23.   Horatio   Kitchener   (UK)
24.   Helmut   Kohl   (Germany)
25.   Rosa   Luxemburg   (Germany)
26.   George   Marshall   (USA)
27.   Slobodan   Milosevic   (Serbia)
28.   Joseph-Désiré   Mobutu Sese Seko   (Congo)
29.   Bernard   Montgomery   (UK)
30.   Aldo   Moro   (Italy)
31.   Benito   Mussolini   (Italy)
32.   Gamal Abdel   Nasser   (Egypt)
33.   Sam   Nujoma   (Namibia)
34.   Olof   Palme   (Sweden)
35.   Juan Domingo   Peron   (Argentina)
36.   Gavrilo   Princip   (Bosnia)
37.   Yitzhak   Rabin   (Israel)
38.   Franklin   Roosevelt   (USA)
39.   Muhammad Anwar al-   Sadat   (Egypt)
40.   Jean-Paul   Sartre   (France)
41.   Robert   Schuman   (France)
42.   Adolfo   Suarez   (Spain)
43.      Suharto   (Indonesia)
44.      Sun Yat-sen   (China)
45.   Palmiro   Togliatti   (Italy)
46.   Rafael   Trujillo Molina   (Dominican Republic)
47.   Chaim   Weizmann   (Israel)
48.   Kaiser   Wilhelm II   (Germany)
49.   Shigeru   Yoshida   (Japan)
50.   Mohammed   Zahir Shah   (Afghanistan)
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big bad fab
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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2009, 06:56:17 PM »

Group six may be:

1.   Salvador   Allende   (Chile)
2.   Idi   Amin Dada   (Uganda)
3.   Hassan al-   Banna   (Egypt)
4.   David   Ben Gourion   (Israel)
5.   King   Bhumibol Adulyadet   (Thailand)
6.   Houari   Boumediene   (Algeria)
7.   George Herbert   Bush   (USA)
8.   Nicolae   Ceausescu   (Romania)
9.      Chiang Kai-shek   (China)
10.   Winston   Churchill   (UK)
11.   Friedrich   Ebert   (Germany)
12.   Alcide de   Gasperi   (Italy)
13.   Giovanni   Giolitti   (Italy)
14.   Felipe   Gonzalez   (Spain)
15.   Antonio   Gramsci   (Italy)
16.      Hassan II of Morocco   (Morocco)
17.   Vaclav   Havel   (Czechoslovakia)
18.   Rudolf   Hess   (Germany)
19.   Paul von   Hindenburg   (Germany)
20.      Hiro Hito   (Japan)
21.   Félix   Houphouët-Boigny   (Ivory Coast)
22.   Cordell   Hull   (USA)
23.      John Paul II   (Vatican)
24.   Lyndon   Johnson   (USA)
25.   Kenneth   Kaunda   (Zambia)
26.   Urho   Kekkonen   (Finland)
27.   Robert   Kennedy   (USA)
28.   Jomo   Kenyatta   (Kenya)
29.   Ali   Khamenei   (Iran)
30.   Nikita   Khrushchev   (USSR)
31.      Lee Kuan Yew   (Singapore)
32.   Georgy   Malenkov   (USSR)
33.   Jan   Masaryk   (Czechoslovakia)
34.   Robert   McNamara   (USA)
35.   François   Mitterrand   (France)
36.   Jean   Monnet   (France)
37.   Louis Earl   Mountbatten   (UK)
38.   Czar   Nikolai II   (Russia)
39.   George   Orwell   (UK)
40.   Javier   Perez de Cuellar   (Peru)
41.      Pham Van Dong   (Vietnam)
42.   Ronald   Reagan   (USA)
43.   Matthew   Ridgway   (USA)
44.   Thomas   Sankara   (Burkina)
45.   Ian   Smith   (Rhodesia)
46.   Claus von   Stauffenberg   (Germany)
47.   Lev Bronstein   Trotski   (USSR)
48.   Hendrik   Verwoerd   (South Africa)
49.      Zhou Enlai   (China)
50.   Muhammad   Zia ul-Haq   (Pakistan)
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big bad fab
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2009, 06:57:39 PM »

Now, you've got one month to... read, discuss and give me ideas.
Wink

But don't forget to vote in World Leaders Survivor and French 20th century Survivor !
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2009, 07:00:11 AM »

Great idea. I will be pleased to take part in it.
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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2009, 08:05:49 AM »

You could wish to include, if you have space, either René Levesque or Maurice Duplessis.
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big bad fab
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« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2009, 08:29:50 AM »

You could wish to include, if you have space, either René Levesque or Maurice Duplessis.
OMG, you're right...
Maybe Lévesque, due to "long life".
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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2009, 06:52:54 PM »

Nitpick: Jaurès is cited twice, rounds one and four. Place for a Quebecois!? Wink
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big bad fab
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« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2009, 03:05:02 AM »

Nitpick: Jaurès is cited twice, rounds one and four. Place for a Quebecois!? Wink
OMG, yes !
I haven't read myself to check those mistakes... Wink
Thanks a lot !
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Јas
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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2009, 08:19:36 AM »

The Persons of the Decade thread, and related threads, may be useful sources for people.
I'd also suggest though that the list is far too long and contains far too many politicians.
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big bad fab
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« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2009, 12:24:21 PM »

The Persons of the Decade thread, and related threads, may be useful sources for people.
I'd also suggest though that the list is far too long and contains far too many politicians.

Thanks for the link, even though I don't find different names.

The bias is voluntarily political.

The huge number is due to a will to take people from most countries of the world and so, to give place for more minor figures in big countries.
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« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2009, 03:38:23 AM »

The Persons of the Decade thread, and related threads, may be useful sources for people.
I'd also suggest though that the list is far too long and contains far too many politicians.

Thanks for the link, even though I don't find different names.

The bias is voluntarily political.

The huge number is due to a will to take people from most countries of the world and so, to give place for more minor figures in big countries.

If you didn't find any new names, then you didn't look too hard.

Anyway, I think if you want a list of politicians with some tokenist others it shouldn't be called a list of "history makers".

No sign of Crick, Watson or Franklin - whose work revolutionised biology and opens up possibilities quite possibly beyond our imagination.

Nor any sign of anyone involved in the communications revolution. Baird and Berners-Lee developed systems that changed the way we take in and interact with the world.

The work of Fleming, Borlaug and many others saved more lives than most people on your list ever effected in any sense.

No Fermi, Bohr, Planck or Feynmann. No Edison, neither Wright brother. No Lennon or McCartney, no Elvis. No Chaplin, no Welles. No Joyce, no Orwell.

History is more than politicians.
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big bad fab
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« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2009, 07:52:09 AM »

Don't worry, I'll change the title, to acknowledge the fact I clearly want a political history survivor.

Other "specialists" are here only if they have a direct or indirect political role (Einstein, von Braun, Gagarin, big business, humanitarian actions,...).

With another title (maybe 20th century political history makers), anyone in this forum will be allowed to do his own (real) history makers survivor Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2009, 07:44:53 AM »

Cool idea. Is the idea to vote for the most infuential person or for the person we think had the best effect or that we like the most? I honestly would prefer a model where you make the list based on the first criterion (influence) and we vote on likeability.
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big bad fab
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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2009, 07:51:01 AM »
« Edited: August 06, 2009, 07:39:43 AM by big bad fab »

Cool idea. Is the idea to vote for the most infuential person or for the person we think had the best effect or that we like the most? I honestly would prefer a model where you make the list based on the first criterion (influence) and we vote on likeability.
I agree with you. In my (too) long explanation, maybe not very clear in my Frenchie English, I've tried to explain that I first wanted to base the whole thing on influence.
But, well, would everyone stick to this ?
At least, my list is based on this (I think, but you can comment on it Smiley ). And I would break tie on this criteria.
More difficult to make people vote from this only viewpoint...
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big bad fab
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« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2009, 07:40:43 AM »

Cool idea. Is the idea to vote for the most infuential person or for the person we think had the best effect or that we like the most? I honestly would prefer a model where you make the list based on the first criterion (influence) and we vote on likeability.
I agree with you. In my (too) long explanation, maybe not very clear in my Frenchie English, I've tried to explain that I first wanted to base the whole thing on influence.
But, well, would everyone stick to this ?
At least, my list is based on this (I think, but you can comment on it Smiley ). And I would break tie on this criteria.
More difficult to make people vote from this only viewpoint...

Have you any solution, Gustaf, in order to implement your "model" (which is theoretically better) ?
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Gustaf
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« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2009, 11:16:10 AM »

Well, I think you are on the right track: you pick the leaders yourself based on influence and then we get to vote on it as an "influential people" survivor or whatever you decide to call it. I guess it will be similar to world leader survivor in the actual voting part.
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big bad fab
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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2009, 09:43:25 AM »

BUMP

I'm going to launch it very soon, so do not hesitate to post suggestions and ideas before it's too late.

I'm going to put it in the History board:
less traffic but more regular and "loyal" voters maybe;
maybe less partisan hack voting also;
and I hope it will bring some new traffic in the History board (you can call me naive if you wanna Wink).

So, to all the international forumers, please get accustomed to check the History board now ! Wink
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2009, 08:23:07 AM »

So, to all the international forumers, please get accustomed to check the History board now ! Wink

I will. Wink
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