Cold War Survivor: Soviet &"sister" party leaders: IMRE NAGY is the SURVIVOR !

[Хahar 🤔]

Andropov

[big bad fab]

Michail Gorbachev
I'm not certain that Andropov could not save the USSR. Of course, it probably couldn't be saved in the way Gorbachev wanted to save it, but a more authoritarian system could be perhaps be successful. Perhaps it would be better for most Soviet Union citizens in the long term.

Switching immediately to a Putinesque regime, sort of ?
OK, my comparison isn't very good, as I'm not sure Andropov was a Russian nationalist.

Brezhnev should have been ousted in1974-75... Then, it may have been saved.

BTW, GMantis, have you been to International What-Ifs, there's a very good idea by Kalwejt with a topic on alternate Soviet leaders

[GMantis]

Michail Gorbachev
I'm not certain that Andropov could not save the USSR. Of course, it probably couldn't be saved in the way Gorbachev wanted to save it, but a more authoritarian system could be perhaps be successful. Perhaps it would be better for most Soviet Union citizens in the long term.

Switching immediately to a Putinesque regime, sort of ?
OK, my comparison isn't very good, as I'm not sure Andropov was a Russian nationalist.

Brezhnev should have been ousted in1974-75... Then, it may have been saved.

BTW, GMantis, have you been to International What-Ifs, there's a very good idea by Kalwejt with a topic on alternate Soviet leaders

More like something of the Chinese model, though perhaps it was too late by then for that.
The latest time that something like Gorbachev's system have worked would be most likely the 70's. They should have let the Prague Spring continue and use it as a model. Then again this would require far more rationality about their Warsaw Pact allies than the Brezhnev and his allies had.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Yuri Andropov

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Michail Gorbachev
I'm not certain that Andropov could not save the USSR. Of course, it probably couldn't be saved in the way Gorbachev wanted to save it, but a more authoritarian system could be perhaps be successful. Perhaps it would be better for most Soviet Union citizens in the long term.

Switching immediately to a Putinesque regime, sort of ?
OK, my comparison isn't very good, as I'm not sure Andropov was a Russian nationalist.

Brezhnev should have been ousted in1974-75... Then, it may have been saved.

BTW, GMantis, have you been to International What-Ifs, there's a very good idea by Kalwejt with a topic on alternate Soviet leaders

More like something of the Chinese model, though perhaps it was too late by then for that.
The latest time that something like Gorbachev's system have worked would be most likely the 70's. They should have let the Prague Spring continue and use it as a model. Then again this would require far more rationality about their Warsaw Pact allies than the Brezhnev and his allies had.

When asked the difference between the Prague Spring reforms and his, Gorbachev responded "19 years".

One of the early initial signs the Soviet Union was done was shortly after Gorbachev took office, he appointed an ethnic Russian to head Kazakhstan. Mass protests broke out in the Kazakh capital. Gorbachev couldn't give the orders to fire and massacre them, so instead he relented, withdrew the appointment and replaced him with an ethnic Kazakh. That's hardly a negative development and if it required massacres to keep the Soviet Union...

[GMantis]

Michail Gorbachev
I'm not certain that Andropov could not save the USSR. Of course, it probably couldn't be saved in the way Gorbachev wanted to save it, but a more authoritarian system could be perhaps be successful. Perhaps it would be better for most Soviet Union citizens in the long term.

Switching immediately to a Putinesque regime, sort of ?
OK, my comparison isn't very good, as I'm not sure Andropov was a Russian nationalist.

Brezhnev should have been ousted in1974-75... Then, it may have been saved.

BTW, GMantis, have you been to International What-Ifs, there's a very good idea by Kalwejt with a topic on alternate Soviet leaders

More like something of the Chinese model, though perhaps it was too late by then for that.
The latest time that something like Gorbachev's system have worked would be most likely the 70's. They should have let the Prague Spring continue and use it as a model. Then again this would require far more rationality about their Warsaw Pact allies than the Brezhnev and his allies had.

When asked the difference between the Prague Spring reforms and his, Gorbachev responded "19 years".

One of the early initial signs the Soviet Union was done was shortly after Gorbachev took office, he appointed an ethnic Russian to head Kazakhstan. Mass protests broke out in the Kazakh capital. Gorbachev couldn't give the orders to fire and massacre them, so instead he relented, withdrew the appointment and replaced him with an ethnic Kazakh. That's hardly a negative development and if it required massacres to keep the Soviet Union...

Kazakhstan, along with most Soviet republics, overwhelmingly supported the continuation of the Soviet Union in a referendum in 1991: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Union_Treaty What they wanted was more self rule, not the collapse of the Union, which today is regretted everwhere except the Baltic Republics. Not surprising, considering the consequences.
In any case, the protests were another sign how stupid Gorbachev was. The practice in the Soviet Union was that the first secretary of the local Communist party always was from the "titular nationality". Changing this all of sudden clearly shows that he didn't understand at all what he was doing.
Gorbachev should have first carried out economic reforms and only then political ones. Because he did it the other way round, he lost support to carry out the reforms that were needed and most importantly, nationalism became too strong, which led to the decline of his powers.

[big bad fab]

Andropov is clearly out and I'm a bit sad...

ROUND THIRTY-TWO IS OPEN

I vote for.... Dubcek !

I want some fight for the end...
And Dubcek was a disappointing one. He agreed on a defeat and on remaining for one year with a "normalized" regime. He was a fine guy and a peaceful one, sure. But maybe too kind and without enough guts to make history.
And I think 1968 was FAR MORE favorable than 1956 to try something really courageous (out of the Warsaw Pact, e.g.).
During 1989, he showed he hasn't understood at all what was at stake...
As for me, another one in the list is the "real" survivor...

I expect some shoutings over my vote, but, well, it's a game !

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Karoly Grosz

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Alexander Dubcek

[Edu]

Karoly Grosz

[Hans-im-Glück]

Karoly Grosz

This is a tactical vote. Normally I want to vote for Gorbachev, but Alexander Dubček is a hero and i don't want that he eliminate now.

[Hash]

Károly Grósz

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

     Alexander Dubcek

[GMantis]

It's ridiculous to vote for Dubcek at this stage.
Karoly Grosz

[Хahar 🤔]

Grósz

[big bad fab]

Unsurprisingly, Grosz is out.
Don't regret it, after all, Gorbachev is a great man by his influence, whatever the opinion -positive or negative- you have on him.

ROUND THIRTY-THREE IS OPEN
Vote away !

I vote again for Dubcek.

Gorbachev was so fascinating when you were politically conscious between 1983 (he began to be prominent under Andropov) and 1991.
I remember that, each time, he was the most moderate of the Politburo, even with the so-called "reformists" he promoted, who became conservatives one or two years later because changes were faster than them: Vitalyi Vorotnikov, Lev Zaikov, Vadim Medvedev, Nikonov, Talyzin, Razumovski, Kriuchkov, Pugo and his dark friend Anatolyi Lukyanov.
Even Aleksandr Yakovlev wasn't more moderate than him: just like him, just regretting a bit more efficiency in (failed) reforms.

The only one who was a bit different: Eltsin. And he was the only one promoted by Gorbachev who later fell. He didn't forgive Gorbachev to have let him down against the Moscow regional apparatus.

And well, when you've lived under the freezing of East-West relations between 1978 and 1984 (missiles in Europe, Afghanistan, South Korean Boeing, Grenada, Iran, Somalia-Ethiopia, Nicaragua, etc), it was fine to see a Soviet leader never resorting to violence, even if in home matters, sometimes, some apparatchiki provoked repression (the first "red fascist" inside the army, like Alksnis, having crushed some demonstrations in Lithuania; or the Bakou uprising in 1990).

That's why I can't vote for Gorbachev. I know he will be out this round anyways.
Won't he ?

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Actually, since Jaruzelki is unjustly go (thanks, Hash ) I'd like to see Gorbachec prevailing over Kadar of Dubcek

So, Dubcek!

[Hash]

Mikhail Gorbachev

[Hans-im-Glück]

Mikhail Gorbachev

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

So we're down to the only three who did any good. Of which Gorbachev did the most good, but also didn't plan as much or plan as well.

So I'll say Gorbachev.

[GMantis]

Michail Gorbachev
The very fact that the reformers became "conservatives" shows how brainless his reforms were.
Whatever the merits of Dubcek and Nagy, at they're not indirectly responsible for over ten civil wars.

[Edu]

Mikhail Gorbachev

[Хahar 🤔]

Gorbachev

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Alexander Dubcek

[big bad fab]

All the Grosz voters gathered around Gorbachev... who is out

FINAL ROUND !

Without any surprise: Dubcek against Nagy !

Vote away ! As usual, vote for the leader you want to eliminate.