Israel general discussion

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Could you explain why Netanyahu would want an early election? I'm not sure why not just wait until early 2013, when it was supposed to be held.

If Israel were to attack Iran, there's probably little upside for Netanyahu and the potential for considerable downside.  Having the election sooner frees him to do what he thinks the situation calls for without having to worry about the political risks.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Yesh Atid stand for nothing except vague platitudes. They are terrible.

Which means that can't be libertarians.  Libertarians stand for clearly defined platitudes.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

All things considered I see a very "warm" summer starting next may (no one likes winter wars and conflicts in the ME)

They might not like them but there's no evidence that anyone tries to avoid them.  If anything, it seems to be the reverse.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

http://www.timesofisrael.com/sudanese-attacks-israeli-on-ethiopian-airlines-flight/

An Israeli citizen was attacked by a Sudanese Muslim on a flight after he learned the man was Jewish.  There doesn't seem to be much outrage or concern from the world at these attacks.  I can only imagine what the reaction would be if the roles were reversed.

I know anti-Semites are stupid but hating Jews and moving to Israel is pretty stupid even for a racist.

I'm not sure what this response has to do with story, the attacker was Sudanese and the flight was between Chad and Ethiopia.

Oh, my bad. I thought it happened in Israel. Now it makes a bit more sense.

Jews getting attacked in Israel by Muslims isn't newsworthy enough to post about because it happens several times a day.  Hell, even the leader of the Palestinians lying about sh**t and telling his people to do it more because of those lies isn't as thread worthy as Bibi saying something stupid about Hitler.  At least around here.

Because Israel holds itself out as not merely a Western-style liberal democracy, but the only real example of that in the Middle East, it's not surprising that it gets held to a higher standard. It's not right, as that standard should be more broadly applied, but it's not surprising.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

It's probably the least least worst/only workable option though. I expect Israeli will see a swift, unexpected Soviet style collapse in the next 20 years.

Maybe in 50 years, tho I think even that would be considerably early for such an event. While the status quo is hardly desirable, for the average Israeli, it is tolerable.  I'm not seeing any news of Jewish emigration from Israel, and I suspect those who care about such statistics would probably tell us we're still seeing net immigration to Israel. Israel's neighbors are in a mess, and it will take them at least a generation for them to straighten things out so that they can begin to close the gap with Israel, let alone begin to cause it enuf concern that a collapse of the current State of Israel could occur. Even then, if said 'collapse' happened that soon, it would be of Zionist democracy and its replacement by Zionist dictatorship and/or theocracy.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

[M]ost young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

Maybe if you define pro-Hamas as not seeing why America should prop up a successful first world country such as Israel.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'm not sure about it. Clinton is not going to cause him any problems regarding the Palestinian issue and will provide a stronger shield than what a Cruz regime could muster around the world. Clinton could block off European initiatives Cruz couldn't.

I am not at all sure about this. The Democratic Party is changing and it is not going to return to the pre-Obama status-quo on Israel. A Clinton administration would be likely to push for new peace negotiations. A Cruz administration would not.

Without some change on the part of the Israelis or the Palestinians, regardless of whether negotiations are held, there will be no change in the official situation.  I don't see Clinton doing anything beyond jaw-jaw to try and bring the two sides together.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Yawn. New trashposter spotted. Enjoy ignore, Berniebro.

This thread is about politics in Israel, not about your irrelevant opinion of Israel.

For once, I'm in complete agreement with you.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Given the silence here, I have to ask, has the BBC been overhyping how significant the Elor Azaria case has been in Israel, or are our ardent defenders of Zionism here humane enuf to not defend a homicidal medic, or are both factors the case here? I think both are likely true, but I could be wrong.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.

It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.

Nice way of deflecting the point. (Same with SunriseAroundTheWorld with his whataboutery in the post just before this one.)  Clearly Parrotguy was asking whether Israel should want to be known as a nation known primarily for its justice (like the US in WW2) or as a nation known primarily for its vengeance (like the Soviets in WW2).

By the way, I don't think a pardon is warranted here, but a murder charge would have been excessive (and impossible to prove absent some evidence of intent to kill a Palestinian on his part even before the attack happened that prompted him into unjust vengeance).  From what I know of the case, I think probation and/or time served combined with a complete prohibition on him ever even holding a gun again since he has clearly shown himself unable to handle the responsibility, would probably be sufficient.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Nice way of deflecting the point. Clearly Parrotguy was asking whether Israel should want to be known as a nation known primarily for its justice (like the US in WW2) or as a nation known primarily for its vengeance (like the Soviets in WW2).

Has nothing to do with deflecting his point and everything with rejecting it. I don't care for your and Parrotguy's Western view on morality regarding war and peace. That's the entire point of this disagreement. I also don't think the idea that the U.S. was oh-so just whereas the Soviets were simply being vengeful should be taken seriously.

Personally, I think a pardon is more than warranted, followed by an official government-initiated ceremony on the Temple Mount to celebrate his freedom with the people.

Actually, if you'd go back and read your Tanakh, especially Isaiah and Amos, I think you'd see I'm applying a Biblical view on morality. The God I see in there is one that wants people to pursue justice and leave vengeance to him to mete out.  But maybe you won't see it. Maybe you'll prove just as deaf to the warning against hubris and pride found in Amos 6:12-14 as Amaziah and Jeroboam were.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Jewish Law is mainly from the Talmud anyway.

I freely admit to not being well-versed in the Talmud, but what I know of it suggests to me that in there one will find an emphasis on justice over vengeance as well.

Incidentally, the pursuit of justice is why I don't favor a harsh punishment of Elor Azaria for his crime.  In some ways, he's a victim of the occupation as well, since it no doubt shaped his attitude that it was acceptable to wantonly shoot a helpless person because of his past actions.  However, being a victim does not merit being pardoned for a crime, let alone being considered a martyr.  To call him a martyr is to make a mockery of the word, and of justice.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The UN gave them no wiggle room on this. By turning every Jewish home in eastern Jerusalem into the equivalent of an illegal outpost, the UN gave Israel the choice between total surrender and waiting for the UN to declare Tel Aviv illegally occupied, or holding the line and making clear to the UN that their filthy piece of paper means nothing. They made the right choice.

The u.n resolution amounted to little more than an angry letter. There is nothing that the u.n could do to stop Israel from building settlements that would not get vetoed by the u.s

Not only that, but the Knesset is playing into every tiresome anti-Semitic trope about "thieving Jews" by telling private Palestinians that they'll be making them offers they can't refuse.  Oh well, at least the excrement is unlikely to hit the rotating air circulation device while I'm still alive to see it.  That of course plays into why such shenanigans happen.  The long term impact of such actions are unlikely to cause trouble during the lifetimes of those voting to set Israel firmly upon the path of kleptocracy and in the short term, they likely will benefit politically.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

While I agree that under international law that Israel can't unilaterally change international borders, I can't imagine a single reason why UNESCO should pass such a resolution.  It's not their job to point that out and it's counterproductive.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Are there any other religious groups in Israel that get such a ludicrously unsustainable sweetheart deal?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.814579

Elor Azaria's sentence reduced to 14 months by IDF Chief of Staff.

Great news, though it remains a disgrace that he was sentenced for doing his job in the first place.

This is objectively false because it's not only not his job but also against the rules, but we shouldn't get into that.

I do not deny that it was against the rules of engagement, which reflects badly on these rules of engagement rather than on Azaria, but Israeli soldiers are there to neutralize (preferably once and for all) terrorist threats and keep Israel safe, and that's exactly what Azaria did. Gmar hatima tova.

What Azaria did was from the standpoint of neutralizing terrorism counterproductive. It wasn't even whack-a-mole, but whack-a-hydra.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Is she wrong?  Do American Jews not serve in the US military?  Does it even matter if she's right or not, should you not say truths that will inevitably piss some people off, or does it depend on the truth and the voting record of the pissed off people?

Except that they aren't truths, at least not in the way anti-Semites would twist such remarks.

http://secular.org/files/mldc-ripsdemographics_0.pdf

As the above link shows, most religious groups--including Jews--are pretty evenly represented among the US military in proportion to their numbers in their age group in the general population.  The exceptions are the irreligious and Baptists who are over represented, and Adventists who are way over represented. I mean seriously, looking at those numbers, I'm tempted to think the FBI propably ought to keep an eye on the SDA.

Granted, compared to Israel when all Jews who aren't Haredi freeloaders (who in all their study seem to ignore Ecclesiastes 1:16-18 since it would inform them that such excessive study of the Hebrew scriptures is a vanity) serve in the military, few American Jews serve, but the same is true for pretty much every American ethnic or religious group.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Statistics about birth rates in Israel are always iffy because they are so politically charged, but I found this article to be quite informative. It's definitely not just Arabs and Haredim (whose birthrate has actually declined over the previous decades, rapidly in the first case).

This is a very good article, though with all the interesting information it brings, it fails to acknowledge the fact that, with all that, a 2-state solution is still necessary because the existence of millions of Palestinians in the West Bank is not a demographic prediction- it's the situation right now. If we were to annex them like our right-wing wants, there would be no decisive Jewish majority.

What the Israeli right wing appears to want is to make the Palestinians on the West Bank so miserable that they'll leave.  A soft ethnic cleansing rather than a hard one seems to be their goal based on what they do. 

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Halt UK arms trade with Israel while UN investigates Gaza killings

You must be logged in to read this quote.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/07/halt-uk-arms-trade-with-israel-while-un-investigates-gaza-killings

I'm hardly a rabid defender of Israeli policy concerning occupied Palestine, but there's no good way for the IDF to distinguish teenagers from adults during a demonstration that comes too close to the border.  Also, given the use that Hamas makes of materials that do get into Gaza, it's perfectly understandable why Israel has such tight restrictions.  Yes, the Israelis have made a number of bone-headed mistakes that are part of the reason the Mideast is in the mess it is in, but that doesn't mean it can't address legitimate security issues.  It does need to address any mistakes or excesses in the implementation of how it chooses to address those issues, but I have no complaint about the general decisions Israel has made with respect to the demonstrations or the import restrictions on Gaza.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

If the Israeli "energy" portfolio is anything like the American one, then at a minimum he could tell the Iranians how much fissile materiel the Israelis had in 1995 and how much they could make per year. Knowing how much they need to defend against if they ever got into a potential nuclear exchange with Israel is not entirely useless knowledge as it lets them know how good of an air and missile defense system they would need before considering the use of nukes themselves.

Probably some other more immediately useful info as well.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

UAE officials in Israel to look at F35s...like, "officially" and stuff.  Good news, yes?

The problem with the adage that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is that such friendships rarely last once the common enemy has been dealt with.  Then there's the fact that the UAE is a demographic time bomb even worse than Israel with almost 90% of the population being foreign workers.  The Emirates are not stable in the long-term. Forging ties with the Emirs might help Israel a little in the short term vis-a-vis Iran but it certainly doesn't do anything to advance the cause of Arab-Israeli peace.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

So David, how would you feel if certain towns in the Netherlands prohibited you from living there because despite being a Dutch citizen, you weren't actually Dutch?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

So David, how would you feel if certain towns in the Netherlands prohibited you from living there because despite being a Dutch citizen, you weren't actually Dutch?

He thinks his Judaism makes him special, he'd cry bigotry in Holland while supporting the exact same thing in Israel. This is why I wonder if he's actually a Jew, or some kind of troll job intentionally using every negative Jewish stereotype to prove some kind of point. The hypocrisy is mind boggling.

Unfortunately, there are hypocrites in every group of people, so you can't use that as a troll test.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

One reason Im skeptical of a two-state solution involving Jerusalem is because of the situation between India and Pakistan involving Kashmir.

Radical Islamic terrorists wont stop attacking India and Israel until both nations are totally are destroyed and that is why they must not be appeased.

Kashmir itself was decisively Muslim at partition. Had Jammu and Kashmir been plebiscited instead of being a nominally independent princely state, Kashmir would've gone to Pakistan with Jammu and Ladakh (save perhaps northern Kargil) to India. Unfortunately, it wasn't which contributed to the fighting and for obvious reasons no post-independence referendum was held.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I don't respond to people on my ignore list (i.e. Horus and Ernest).

Yes you are quite irresponsive to those who don't share your views, but even if you weren't choosing to live in an echo chamber, I don't think I posted anything since your last post that would have generated a reply by you.