October 2017 Federalist Party Convention - Partial Results

[Oakvale]

Oakvale, I have done my best to defend you through all of this because I really do like you....but maybe you should change your methods some if you really want some to embrace your style and campaigning. I'm not saying hide your feelings (as I am so constantly accused of doing myself), but maybe at least attack people less, don't attack people publicly in your own party I'd say is a golden rule.....This isn't an unsolvable solution but you don't have a golden past (nor do I really) so you can't just expect some in the party to not hate you or at the very least strongly oppose your existence as a candidate of the party. Maybe try reasoning in both PM and here without attacking but strongly making your case as much as possible and maybe apologizing for the attacks and it can all work out.

I'm sorry dfw, but while I have no issue with people hating my guts (I welcome their hatred, and so on) I won't stand for attacks on my character. I have not 'campaigned' for my retention but I've - very politely - asked a couple of members supporting the motion their reasons and without fail they've replied on some variant of "because PiT/Leinad do". Not a single person has yet provided a legitimate reason. This is a process happening entirely in the shadows. There is no transparency.

People can vote for whatever reason they like. I don't begrudge them that, and whatever happens I'll continue my campaign, because there's more important issues at stake here. And I'll work with anyone if I'm fortunate enough to be elected. But, my assessment of the situation is honest - it is obscene.

We're approaching a situation where, if Leinad gets his way, some random write-in candidate will be the official Federalist House nominee in my stead. That's intolerable.

[Terry the Fat Shark]

Well this much is true, I haven't seen a reasonable explanation as to how you are actually causing damage to the party at this present moment, especially as much at this vote seems to actually be causing damage to this party. All of that being said, I think I'm going to be an independent for a long time to come for a few reasons, for one thing I feel like my mission to make the party stronger and a better party is complete, for another thing I don't think it's healthy for the game for Labor to be so weak (they have ZERO House candidates right now), and for one last thing, I don't like the direction things are starting to head now.

So, both sides can go ahead and throw my opinions out the window, if they want, or they can take this one last piece of advice.

Leinad et al: It's time to calm down, I understand you literally hate Oakvale, but the House elections are less than a week away, there is nothing that can be done now to keep him off of the slate, expulsion or not, its best to try and work out your differences with Oakvale once and for all, I know you believe that you are helping but it has the potential to backfire spectacularly for the party.

Oakvale: Like I said, attacks are not the solution even if you see the arguments as bad, I endorsed you because I think you'd be good in the House and you are a party candidate (for better or for worse), please try to work out your differences with Leinad et al, they are important components of the party and are valued members of the party.

This is a crossroads, for better or for worse.

[Enduro]

Leinad has proven time and time again that he has the party's best interests in mind, and that he's constantly trying to do the right thing. Oakvale has not proved either of those things. Everytime I see him on iirc,  he's insulting someone.

Leinad has earned my trust, and I will be voting with him. Frankly, the lack of support for someone who has done so much for us is embarrassing. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

What an utterly absurd statement. "Leinad has done a lot for the Party so we must support his unhinged personal vendetta". It is you who should be ashamed of yourself for debasing yourself in such a manner.

The nature of Leinad is to help, and your nature is to destroy. I trust him. Supporting a friend when he's right is hardly debasing myself.

Tell me more about my nature, I haven't been psychoanalysed in a while. What a foul thing to say.

I'm just speaking from what I've seen, and being as honest as I can. I don't insult people needlessly, as much as I can prevent myself from doing at least. Truly, you take what I said and do whatever you want to do with it. If I'm wrong with my assessment, I'll take it back, but only until you either prove me wrong or make an effort to change.

[Enduro]

I motion to stop all this bickering, and have the vote already.

[fhtagn]

I motion to stop all this bickering, and have the vote already.

As I had mentioned in a previous post, Yankee has not been online for me to discuss the situation with him prior to holding a vote. I wouldn't consider waiting until our party's Chair has been made aware of the situation is at all unreasonable, especially when our bylaws do not set a time limit for when the vote should be held. Until then, y'all (and I'm talking about both sides here) need to chill.

It's worth noting that in the event that the vote for expulsion passes, Oakvale would still have the party's endorsement as a House candidate per our bylaws.

I also do not think it was unreasonable to ask Leinad to provide proof of his claims. He has made accusations, called for a party member to be expelled, and is asking the party to vote simply based on his word? That is not how it works, nor how it should work. It is unfair to members of the party, and unfair to Oakvale for a vote to be held deciding his future in the party with no evidence.

[Former Senator Haslam2020]

We should vote soon. Look Oakvale, I hardly know you, I hope that changes sometime but this public argument in our Convention makes us look intensely, intensely divided. Leinad's a really cool guy, though. I second the opinion that this should go to a private chat. It would be really good to sort those differences out there. Personally I have no ill feelings towards anyone in the game, regardless of party or opinion. Let's just get this solved.

[Leinad]

There is no timeline for when the vote should take place per the party's bylaws. That being said, I am waiting on the opportunity to discuss the situation further with Yankee before we make a decision on when the vote takes place. In the meantime, I would urge Leinad to provide evidence that Oakvale's recent behavior has been a detriment to this party, and really think about the damage this motion causes the party this close to an election. It does not revoke Oakvale's endorsement from the Federalist party, and it causes a further divide than our party needs at this time.

First of all, delaying a vote will do nothing but hurt the party. I'm not sure how you can say the party is hurt by an expulsion vote this close to an election, and then turn around and make the expulsion vote more damaging by dragging it out, and making it even closer to the election. It is best for all of us to wrap this up ASAP.

Second of all, even though I have proof, it is not a requirement for an expulsion vote. I have heard the (imo wrong and dangerous) argument that party leadership is bound to endorse any party candidate no matter how vile--what is actually true, however, is that party leadership is bound to hold an expulsion vote if it's seconded. This does not require proof or any judgement calls from party leadership. I know the bylaws don't set a timeline, but unless you want to suppress the will of the voters (which I know you obviously don't, because you're still an excellent Vice-Chair despite your view on this) this is happening, and again, it is best for all involved for it to happen sooner rather than later.

Now, you want proof? As I said, I have some! Unfortunately it isn't really "recent," which is mostly because Oakvale has barely done anything in Atlasia "recently" (which should be a concern about having him be one of our candidates to begin with, but whatever).

Oakvale's thoughts on Bore, a Laborite whose far-left cabinet members tried to destroy Atlasia (which should prove his conservative pandering is false):

RIP to one of the best Presidents in all my time here.

Supporting Pacific secessionism:

I of course fully and enthusiastically support this bill. As a long-time advocate of human rights, I of course back the freedom of the Pacific people, as should any democrat. And as a former Supreme Court Justice and an expert on our poor, battered old Constitution, I do not see anything that prohibits self-determination for the regions.

It's typical of the low energy Atlasian nationalists that they cling to legalism as they sweat and shake at the prospect of the people of their country determining their own destiny.

Oakvale's opposition to the office of GM (abolishing the office of GM is a view most Feds have been strongly against--Congress depends on the office's work for various functions and voting to leave it vacant indefinitely is irresponsible):

You must be logged in to read this quote.

(Can't quote normally because the thread is locked--link is here)

So I hear some of you dislike expulsion? How about trying to expel a large chunk of the Senate because they rejected the Supreme Court nominee you supported?:

I motion for the expulsion of Senators NC Yankee, Lumine, Cris, Truman and PiT for making a mockery of the Senate's confirmation process.

I urge all right-thinking Senators to sign the motion.

And here was his official statement on the matter.

And last but not least, feast your eyes on these chat logs

[Associate Justice PiT]

Leinad has proven time and time again that he has the party's best interests in mind, and that he's constantly trying to do the right thing. Oakvale has not proved either of those things. Everytime I see him on iirc,  he's insulting someone.

Leinad has earned my trust, and I will be voting with him. Frankly, the lack of support for someone who has done so much for us is embarrassing. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

What an utterly absurd statement. "Leinad has done a lot for the Party so we must support his unhinged personal vendetta". It is you who should be ashamed of yourself for debasing yourself in such a manner.

The nature of Leinad is to help, and your nature is to destroy. I trust him. Supporting a friend when he's right is hardly debasing myself.

Tell me more about my nature, I haven't been psychoanalysed in a while. What a foul thing to say.

I'm just speaking from what I've seen, and being as honest as I can. I don't insult people needlessly, as much as I can prevent myself from doing at least. Truly, you take what I said and do whatever you want to do with it. If I'm wrong with my assessment, I'll take it back, but only until you either prove me wrong or make an effort to change.

     The effort to change is really the key part here. I've posted on this forum for a long time and I have seen plenty of Oakvale's contributions. Leinad's post illustrating the various ways in which Oakvale has tried to undermine the republic don't surprise me in the slightest. Sure they were a while ago, but Oakvale hasn't really evinced an effort to change.

     I second the motion to proceed to a vote on the motion to expel.

[fhtagn]

I am aware that evidence was not listed as a requirement to motion to expel, but you seriously cannot see why it is unethical to hold a vote without giving people a chance to see proof behind your claims? Can you seriously not see why it is concerning to have the party determine someone's future with us simply based on your word (which two other members in this thread have already said they were basing their vote on)?

And once again, it appears that you have failed to read that I have not proceeded with a vote because I wanted our party's Chair to have the chance to be informed about what is going on. Forgive me for making such an unreasonable request.

I will be giving Oakvale and anyone on his behalf a chance to respond to the evidence provided against him. He deserves the opportunity to defend or explain his actions and provide any evidence he has, and our party members deserve to hear both sides as well.

[fhtagn]

I will proceed with the vote at midnight tonight. This gives time for Oakvale and anyone on his behalf to respond to the evidence provided, and allows additional time for Yankee to respond to information that has been provided to him regarding the current situation.

[Oakvale]

...

Good God. I wasn't expecting much but even given that this is a shoddy pile of 'evidence'.

Friends, I stand accused of the heinous crimes of -

1. Supporting President Bore, a close personal friend and one of our greatest Presidents, a towering figure in Atlasian history who had the courage to step back and stare into the abyss.

I am proud to have supported him and make no apologies for it.

2. Of supporting regional independence. This attack is particularly odd since it is hardly a secret - surely, at least, poor old Leinad could have dug up my posts on the matter from, um, a couple of months ago in which I reiterated my position, to say nothing of my advocacy of such in my presidential bid.

Again, I make no apologies for this, and it is hardly a secret. I am an open and dedicated supporter of the right to regional self-determination for activity purposes, though I recognise the right of the people to determine their future in this regard.

3. Again, Leinad decides that the supposed evidence for my expulsion is a post in which I, uh, say the same thing I've been saying for years, including literally six days ago in my House campaign thread.

It's true, I believe the GM position has outlived its usefulness and should be abolished. Most of you know my view on this. I recognise that most people don't agree with me. If your standard for expulsion is that we have disagreement on an issue of policy, well, so be it. But I think we're better than that.

5. That I, as a protest, moved to expel all Senators who "Merrick Garland"-ed Bacon King's nomination to the Supreme Court. The shabby treatment of Bacon King, perhaps the most qualified Court nominee in our history, was a low point in Atlasian congressional history. It was exposed as a farce when, later, Crooked Harry Truman, one of the ringleaders of the scheme, fell ass-backwards into the Presidency on an interim basis and... appointed a Supreme Court Justice to little complaint. Unbelievable!

I understand if people will dislike this move on my part - when I was not a member of the party - but, obviously, the motion never had any chance of success and was a gesture of protest against a fundamentally unfair hearing given to a qualified nominee. I thus defend it.

The reason Leinad's case is so flimsy is because it is fundamentally based on histrionic appeal. People fear that Leinad - who they like and respect - will have a hissy fit and storm out of the party should I not be unduly expelled. This is what's at the core of this case and let's not pretend otherwise. He has a personal dislike of me and has threatened to take his toys and go home unless you see things his way.

Leinad is blackmailing you.It's that simple. You may like him. You may respect his service. You may trust him. But he is attempting to expel a member in good standing by threatening to depart if his demands are not met.


As I've said in my office - ignore Leinad, and, while you're at it, ultimately, ignore me, too - if all members take an honest look at the facts of this unfortunate matter, I am confident that reason will prevail and I have nothing to fear.

Thank you.

[Leinad]

I think we have both stated our points clearly and now it is best to leave it to the members of the party to decide. I will even ignore most of the repeated reliance on lazy ad hominem attacks against me--but I can't let this slide:

Leinad is blackmailing you.

this is a blatant lie in at attempt to mischaracterize this as something it is not. I have already stated that I am leaving the party should this vote fail because I don't agree that we should actively try to elect a known Atlasia-hating fraud who has shown no indication of ever changing simply because he has registered with the party and pandered to our bullet-points. Part of me still stands by that decision, part of me regrets it. But I already said it and I don't think I can turn back now--I try not to say things I don't intend to do, and always feel terrible when I stray from my word. Trust is a very important thing--in fact the core of this issue is that you, Oakvale, have repeatedly proven that you cannot be trusted.

That is all.

[Rjjr77]

I will proceed with the vote at midnight tonight. This gives time for Oakvale and anyone on his behalf to respond to the evidence provided, and allows additional time for Yankee to respond to information that has been provided to him regarding the current situation.

whats the timeframe on the vote? 24Hrs? 48 hrs?

[FairBol]

Good God. I wasn't expecting much but even given that this is a shoddy pile of 'evidence'.

The evidence presented is pretty flimsy, IMHO.  Just saying. 

[fhtagn]

I will proceed with the vote at midnight tonight. This gives time for Oakvale and anyone on his behalf to respond to the evidence provided, and allows additional time for Yankee to respond to information that has been provided to him regarding the current situation.

whats the timeframe on the vote? 24Hrs? 48 hrs?

Normally I would run the standard 72 hours, however, since there is no actual requirement per the bylaws for a time frame, and given that 72 hours would end at the start of elections, I will be running it for 48 hours (unless there are any objections).

It would start at midnight Tuesday December 5th (tonight) and run until midnight Thursday December 7th.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

You know somewhere in all of this, I take it that some people lost sight of the point. And I find that disturbing, because it illustrates that some of people have forgotten or taken the wrong lessons from 2015.

2015 isn't the issue. Oakvale isn't the issue. It is the actions you take, the actions that go too far to achieve a desired objective. When you lose sight of that, you become what you detest. You become the next Oakvale, Nappy, whoever.

Now this may come as a shock to some, but I am not about to go off on some tirade over any of this. What I am going to do, is the same thing I did in September 2016.

I am taking back control of this convention. I am going to hold off on holding any votes, you might say a shutdown if you will, until I can find out What the hell is going on.

Now if any of you have a problem with that, you know giving me the space that I asked for on Friday when I begged for obvious reasons to avoid any confrontations over the weekend, well I might consider revisiting my statement about no tirades.

Now everyone is going to calm down, take a deep breath, smoke some reefer and shut the hell up for a few minutes.

[Leinad]

I have had a discussion with the others and decided it was rash of me to want to leave the party--I no longer intend to do that regardless of what happens here, and I am very sorry to people who this caused stress to--I would never intentionally do something to harm said people.

That being said, I am not withdrawing the motion to expel. I am still convinced, for reasons I have discussed all throughout this thread, that it is for the good of the party and the game to not support Oakvale, and to expel him from the Federalist Party, as he has been proven to have a continued pattern of lying and attempts to ruin the game, which he has never reversed on. It is up to the members of the party whether they agree with me or not, now, let's start the vote!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

A vote is now open on the motion to expel Oakvale from the Federalist Party. Members shall have 48 hours to cast their votes. This will be restricted members who were registered with the party at the time the motion for expulsion was brought.

[Leinad]

Aye

[Fmr. Representative Encke]

Aye

[Potus]

Nay.

[Classic Conservative]

Aye

[Esteemed Jimmy]

Aye

[dead0man]

Aye

[fhtagn]

Nay