Greece 2012

[Antonio the Sixth]

Even if people do vote for corrupt politicians, and even if a significant share of the population has probably benefitted from or taken part to corruption, it is still absurd to hold people directly responsible for it. These kind of systems, once established (and their establishment itself generally comes from inherent societal factors), create dependences which make them very hard to break up.

This is true but irrelevant. It is always the citizens of a country that suffer the consequences of it's incompotence... even places like North Korea. If the North Koreans are to suffer for the incompetence of their horrible regime, I feel no pity for Greeks suffering the consequences of incompotence by their elected government.

Sure innate structural factors that the Greeks did not choose are responsible. You can say the same thing when it comes to individuals... is the serial killer to blame for possessing a neurology or suffering an upbringing that primed to murder people? No, nonetheless we punish him because no quantity of philosophy can overrule the iron law of society: people and groups are responsible for their actions.

If we spent less time "punishing" people, and more time trying to fix what's wrong with societies or institutions, human progress would be so much quicker.

And even if the Greeks had deserved a "punishment", I think anybody with a tad of common sense and who isn't an utter hypocrite can agree that they have suffered more than enough for their "sins".

[Antonio the Sixth]

It has nothing to do with virtuous, but everything with being able to explain their voters why they need to support the other countries. It would be a death of kiss for any government which send a fortune to Greece, only for the national media bringing the news that the the Greeks continued their existing dysfunctional behaviour.

Maybe "either we do this or we are all screwed" might be a decent explanation. Considering European leaders have contributed to spreading the delusion according to which since 2009 they have made enormous sacrifices to help Greece, and by pure generosity (whereas, in fact, they have done almost nothing and the little they have done was to avoid economic disaster in the eurozone as a whole), they bear a lot of responsibility in the state of public opinions.

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So, you're a working class Dane. Tell me, would you trade your economic situation for that of a working class Greek ? Do you think he's better off than you right now ? Do you think he will be better of at the end of his life ? AFAIK, considering the wage cuts, the dismantlement of welfare State Merkel&co have imposed to Greece and the massive recession the country is enduring and will probably endure in the next decade at least, I'm not sure you would gain much from this trade-off.

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Which is pretty damn stupid, considering austerity is part of the problem : it has ruined any chance of economic recovery, pushed Europe back into recession, and the most ridiculous of all is that it actually increases deficits. An excellent idea, really.

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Now I really don't get it. How exactly are the Greeks responsible for the evolution of their country since 2009 ? All they have done since has basically been imposed by the Troika/Merkozy, so, if you have to blame someone, don't look at poor Papandreou...

Of course it would be beneficial to all (Greeks comprised) if corruption suddenly ceased and Greece became a perfect country like the scandinavians. We all wish that. However, I can't believe you are naive enough to think all this could be done in a trice. Structural reforms take time. They can take a full generation to produce their effects. And, above all, there is zero chance to see a diminution of corruption and illegality in a situation of economic depression. When people are desperate, there is no chance they will make an effort to pay their taxes or wouldn't try to bribe the local civil servant for an advantage. So, by pushing Grece into destitution, you paladines of austerity not really helping.

[Antonio the Sixth]

OK, I won't respond to any more post which contain "why should we pay". Now I'm sick of this mind-numbed rhetoric.

[Antonio the Sixth]

OK, I won't respond to any more post which contain "why should we pay". Now I'm sick of this mind-numbed rhetoric.

Well but it's true. You don't seem to have much respect for what belings to people (including collectively as a country). You can argue and debate what is in the best interest of all participants, but you act like Spain, Greece, whoever else have a right to German, Austrian and Finnish money. Whatever your beliefs on the Euro crisis, we are talking about sovereign countries. What you're suggesting is comparable, in principle, to saying Niger has a right to receive money from Europe because their people live in poverty (which, morally at least, is much more understandable and worthy of support.)

This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are two options : either we accept the idea of a common currency, with everything it entails (including eurobonds), or we definitely settle on the old-fashioned selfish nationalist logic with everything it entails (ie abandoning Euro). Both these choices are absolutely legitimate (even though I think the second would be an economic suicide). All what I want is some consistency in reasoning.

[Antonio the Sixth]

OK, I won't respond to any more post which contain "why should we pay". Now I'm sick of this mind-numbed rhetoric.

It's not rhetoric: it's the essence of things. And you'd better understand that.

[Antonio the Sixth]

This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are two options : either we accept the idea of a common currency, with everything it entails (including eurobonds), or we definitely settle on the old-fashioned selfish nationalist logic with everything it entails (ie abandoning Euro). Both these choices are absolutely legitimate (even though I think the second would be an economic suicide). All what I want is some consistency in reasoning.

The idea of the common european currency entails not merely eurobonds, but a european government responsible to a european parliament that has direct taxation authority over the european population. Unless you are willing to share you real president with the German voters, you aren't accepting what a common currency entails.

You are absolutely right, I couldn't agree more. All this is what should come next. But you can't do everything at once. The next step is Eurobonds, then something else, etc. until we have a complete European Federation.

[Antonio the Sixth]

This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are two options : either we accept the idea of a common currency, with everything it entails (including eurobonds), or we definitely settle on the old-fashioned selfish nationalist logic with everything it entails (ie abandoning Euro). Both these choices are absolutely legitimate (even though I think the second would be an economic suicide). All what I want is some consistency in reasoning.

The idea of the common European currency entails not merely eurobonds, but a European government responsible to a European parliament that has direct taxation authority over the European population. Unless you are willing to share you real president with the German voters, you aren't accepting what a common currency entails.

You are absolutely right, I couldn't agree more. All this is what should come next. But you can't do everything at once. The next step is Eurobonds, then something else, etc. until we have a complete European Federation.

But a large number of European states, especially in the east and north, doesn't want that, so you would need to split the present EU before you could get that far, which is a cumbersome process. Furthermore you would have to create a new structure for cooperation between the European Federation and the rest of the old EU (including several states from the Euro zone). I just cant see how this can be accomplished. Especially in the middle of an economic crisis.

It will take time. Maybe an entire century... But I want to believe this is what we are heading to, because all the other outcomes I can think of are despairingly bleak.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Political union of that kind is dead. It's been killed, partially on purpose, over the past decade.

It has been extremely weakened, but I don't think it's dead. I can't believe the only idea that can avoid the inexorable decline of Europe is dead. If I believed that, I'd give up on politics outright.

[Antonio the Sixth]

What is dimiourga xana ?

[Antonio the Sixth]

What is dimiourga xana ?

Nazis

Goddamnit, another nazi party ? *__*

[Antonio the Sixth]

What is dimiourga xana ?

Nazis

Goddamnit, another nazi party ? *__*

I am sorry. I didn't mean Nazis in the literal sense. Just that they are a horrible party

Yeah, after we got to know Golden Dawn, one should be much more careful in using the word.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Merkel fanboys

LOL masochists LOL

[Antonio the Sixth]

[Antonio the Sixth]

It is technically impossible to force a country to leave the eurozone.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Surley this  must mean the end to Golden Dawn's time in parliament?

Well, the thing is, if a person is actually a horrible enough human being to find it in themselves to vote for a neo-nazi party, than would they actually be bothered by something like this?

Sadly, I think the kind of people who vote for XA are just deluded idiots who have no idea what kind of party they are voting for. A share of them probably don't even know what a nazi is...

[Antonio the Sixth]

Nailbiter until the end...

Well, I am going to forget the political aspect of this and focus solely on the entertainment value this might have (especially since there is another election today for which I'll focus only on the political aspect ).

[Antonio the Sixth]

Any predictions as to who wins at this point?

Dead heat, basically.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Stupidity...

[Antonio the Sixth]

Sorry, that's the only thing that came to my mind after reading your posts. There's no way to argue with such mind-numbed talking points. It's like arguing with AmericanNation or CaDan.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Believe me, I don't like to. But I felt the need to express my feelings, because my despair reaches new heights every time I realize how widespread your "views" are.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Anybody who has taken time to actually argue on this issue knows that I do have arguments. Whether they are good or not is left to your judgement.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Why is Pasok even interested in taking part in such a government

They have to. I might have supported Syriza, but ND has won fair and square and Greece's interest is to have a stable government. If Dimar could be brought into it (I'm sure they don't want to, but still) it would be even better.