French Jews Planning Mass Exodus in Wake of Terrorist Attacks

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Some important context that is often overlooked in this discussion; most French Jews are of North African Sephardi origin and are relatively recent (and not exactly entirely voluntarily) migrants (1950s-60s) to France. Often half a family ended up in France and the other half in Israel.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Though not nearly as serious as harassment, intimidation, and terrorizing of, say, Muslims.

Depends on the country and sometimes where in the country. But both things are (of course!) deplorable and it's certainly not a contest...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Firstly, it is not a contest. Secondly, that's statistically untrue at present.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This narrative is highly exaggerated.

The suspicion has to be that those promoting it generally want it to be so (if for different reasons).

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Firstly, it is not a contest. Secondly, that's statistically untrue at present.

Then, please share the stats with us.

Well there have certainly been less murders, but if you mean in a more general sense...

To start with, there's a useful report here. Which, again, makes it clear that this isn't a contest and that things are unpleasant for both groups (and for the Roma, who have the additional problem of state-sponsored discrimination). I would point out again my earlier use of 'present': it isn't impossible that the situation regarding anti-Muslim attacks could get significantly worse (certainly the political climate in France is alarming in that regard).

Anyway, the long and the short of it is that official estimates have tended to show that an exceedingly disproportionate percentage of racist attacks in France have an antisemitic character. Its a bit late at night for me to trust my French (bunch of stuff here, probably, but I'd only know what to look for when not half asleep)* so I've had to look around for something in English: anyway, recent official figures are on page 31 of this report. Admittedly there are a bunch of problems with official (or official-ish, Franch being France) figures for this sort of thing, but the general picture is clear enough.

Depressing fycking topic this one.

_{*Story of my life.}

[Filuwaúrdjan]

native Europeans

Kindly fyck yourself with a rusty razorblade.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The entire continent of Europe has a single 'historical majority population'? Since when?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Very useful indeed. Only I do not see how it is supporting your point.

My main point is that there is not a contest. I tend to think that the French state has done a pretty lamentable job of protecting all of its more obvious minorities. Anyway...

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Unfortunately the report was less than clear on this point and so has deceived you a little; for the purposes of the report it was citing general racist incidents and antisemitic racist incidents were counted separately. Here is a very happy little graph from it:

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This is always a risk with hate crime data, sure. But what's the alternative?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Well, I do not see official figures: I could find only the reference to an unnamed source in the interior ministry. Especially, given that France does not collect data officially by race or religion. I also see a clear  figure of 0 homicides or attempted homicides for the entire year of 2014 (compared with 1 in 2013). The other numbers, even if I am to trust the unnamed source, are naturally subject to reporting and classification bias. The study is presented by a Jewish group, which, naturally, concerns itself with anti-Semitic violence. I would, at least, like to see a similar study for a Muslim human rights group. Wouldn't you?

France being France and so refusing to handle this sort of thing in a normal way, the SPCJ figures more or less are official ones (the figures are produced in cooperation with the police). On your latter point, an organisation called the CCIF does in fact put together annual reports on anti-Muslim incidents (the vast majority of which are cases of blatant discrimination* rather than violence or intimidation, so the headline figures aren't directly comparable) in France.

*Edit: and I think it's a very good thing that they are attempting to record instances of this.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Recently immigrated Sephardic Jews from North Africa are not native Europeans.

Ah, but this is precisely why 'native European' is such a dubious concept. Jews lived in the Iberian Peninsular (Sepharad: thus Sephardi) from Roman times¹ until 1492/7, after which they largely ended up in North Africa, the Ottoman Empire and (mostly Conversos in this case) the New World. You could, then, argue that the are more 'native' to Europe than the majority populations of several European countries, certainly more than historic elites.² What's the gap of a few centuries for a group with an absurdly long historical memory?

<sub>1. At least. Arguments have been made for even longer settlement, but there's no consensus on this.
2. And not just in terms of the immediately obvious (i.e. the fact that Magyar incursions into Pannonia did not begin until the 860s). Its clear that the Sephardis existed centuries before the great population movements that destroyed the Roman Empire began.</sub>

[Filuwaúrdjan]

So, I guess, we can say that they suffer as the North Africans, not so much as Jews (there are more identified attacks by the white rightwingers, than by Muslims, in the same report).

Or at least as a very obvious and very visible minority, sure.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

You are white if you look white.

I have dark hair and a beard. People have occasionally (not often, but you notice: makes you think as well) acted around me as if I am not white and that this is a 'problem' on some level. Yet, my God, look at my family tree! Christ, some of my Taid's ancestors are probably in the fossil record of the parish he was born in.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Should it just be forbidden to refer to the majority population in Europe by any common label? (then you need to use a lot of stupid coded language, since it is a social reality)

We aren't the same 'people' so it's not an issue.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Add 'Germans' to that list. Friedrich Engels on the Irish:

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