UK General Discussion: 2017 and onwards, Mayhem

[Lord Halifax]

Considering Ulster nationalism and especially the DUP/FPCoU/UVF is very Scottish I'm really surprised the SNP manages to sustain such an ambiguous position on the matter. Do Scottish nationalists don't care anymore for Ulster? It used to be a stable way to get Scots to vote Tory

The SNP wants nothing to do with Ulster unionism, or NI in general.

Remnants of the old fashioned Orange Order unionism still exists in parts of Western Scotland, but the Scottish Tories have long since distanced themselves from it. Unlike NI modern Scotland is secular/post-Christian and fairly liberal.

[Lord Halifax]

the election results quite clearly show that a divide still exists between traditional protestant areas and traditional catholic ones - the Tory success in Lanark and Hamilton East suggests that very strongly, as does Labour's regain of lots of traditional working class areas which have a traditional catholic history.  The locals also show it - right down to the local authorities where the sectarian divide was Catholic=Labour, Protestant=SNP...

The SNP strength in traditionally Catholic (= Irish) areas is yet another reason why they would never support NI unionism and/or their "Ulster Scots brethren". The idea of Scottish Nationalists being friendly towards the DUP et al is ridiculous. I once interviewed Ian Wilson, who was then the Grand Master of the Orange Order in Scotland, and he lamented the Scottish Tories had abandoned them -"they had a large voting block in Western Scotland", and said he thought most of their members now voted Labour (it was about 7-8 years ago).

[Lord Halifax]

I have to imagine Ulster nationalism died out as a cause for Scottish nationalists around the time Rangers finally started signing Catholic players

You are mixing two things. The sectarian culture that thrives among some Rangers fans isn't Scottish nationalist, but British unionist ("loyalist").

In Glasgow Celtic fans (and other Catholics) are significantly more likely to be SNP supporters than Rangers fans.

[Lord Halifax]

I have to imagine Ulster nationalism died out as a cause for Scottish nationalists around the time Rangers finally started signing Catholic players

You are mixing two things. The sectarian culture that thrives among some Rangers fans isn't Scottish nationalist, but British unionist ("loyalist").

In Glasgow Celtic fans (and other Catholics) are significantly more likely to be SNP supporters than Rangers fans.

Considering each match starts with Rule Britannia they were awfully quite during the referendum

Your point? (I assume you mean quiet?)

[Lord Halifax]

I could write a lot more about how the actual right of Labour (of which even I don't identity with) has been unpopular for years, has a lack of money, a lack of talent and no real support in the PLP.

Please do.

[Lord Halifax]

Well, May's appointment of Williamson has gone down well...

Quote an anonymous Tory MP: he is a "self-serving c**nt". It strikes me as the sort of overly ambitious self-promotion that could potentially kill a career.

Lets hope so.

[Lord Halifax]

British legislation on this sort of issue is quite specific. Effectively these are - as Blair says - public order offences.

The British concept of "public order" seems rather authoritarian, it can seemingly be abused to target anyone the authorities don't like. There should be a certain right to "public disorder".

[Lord Halifax]

https://twitter.com/JoeTwyman/status/1024220891897647104?s=19

I hope Peace in Northern Ireland remains, but I really hope that Northern Ireland is no longer part of the United Kingdom.

When Ulster goes the UK is finished.

There would still be two of the former kingdoms left: England and Scotland, and Wales is no longer part of England but very clearly defined as a separate entity. Going back to simply calling it the Kingdom of Great Britain would probably irritate the Scots as it makes Scotland a region rather than a country. The United Kingdom of England, Scotland and Wales would reflect the current status with extensive Scottish and Welsh autonomy better.

[Lord Halifax]

The partition of Ireland, was a terrible mistake,
We paid the price in England for decades and we are still paying the price, more funding per head on Ulster then most towns and cities across England,
We are stuck with people that oppose Marriage equility, womans Right, and do not believe in our liberal values.
Most English people are sympathetic toward a united Ireland, it's Ulster-Scots that want to be part of our Country...  
But with demographic changes and Catholics becoming a majority it will happen...

part of 'your' country...The UK does not belong to English people. They are everybit as British as your white van Essex Man, one might even claim they are more than him.

If you aren't living in Britain you clearly aren't as British as the people actually living there, no matter how you identify.

[Lord Halifax]

The partition of Ireland, was a terrible mistake,
We paid the price in England for decades and we are still paying the price, more funding per head on Ulster then most towns and cities across England,
We are stuck with people that oppose Marriage equility, womans Right, and do not believe in our liberal values.
Most English people are sympathetic toward a united Ireland, it's Ulster-Scots that want to be part of our Country... 
But with demographic changes and Catholics becoming a majority it will happen...

part of 'your' country...The UK does not belong to English people. They are everybit as British as your white van Essex Man, one might even claim they are more than him.

If you aren't living in Britain you clearly aren't as British as the people actually living there, no matter how you identify.

This seems overly semantic, as the term British here clearly seems to indicate "UKish" rather than a geographical connection to the island of Great Britain. I fully agree with hnv1 here.

The Ulster Protestant identity was developed in Ireland and is for better or worse (mostly the latter) an Irish identity, a particular Irish version of imagined Britishness that is now at odds with modern British identity and culture as practiced by actual Britons. Even Ian Paisley agreed that he was "an Irish man", a product of Ireland.

[Lord Halifax]

The partition of Ireland, was a terrible mistake,
We paid the price in England for decades and we are still paying the price, more funding per head on Ulster then most towns and cities across England,
We are stuck with people that oppose Marriage equility, womans Right, and do not believe in our liberal values.
Most English people are sympathetic toward a united Ireland, it's Ulster-Scots that want to be part of our Country...  
But with demographic changes and Catholics becoming a majority it will happen...

part of 'your' country...The UK does not belong to English people. They are everybit as British as your white van Essex Man, one might even claim they are more than him.

If you aren't living in Britain you clearly aren't as British as the people actually living there, no matter how you identify.

This seems overly semantic, as the term British here clearly seems to indicate "UKish" rather than a geographical connection to the island of Great Britain. I fully agree with hnv1 here.

The Ulster Protestant identity was developed in Ireland and is for better or worse (mostly the latter) an Irish identity, a particular Irish version of imagined Britishness that is now at odds with modern British identity and culture as practiced by actual Britons. Even Ian Paisley agreed that he was "an Irish man", a product of Ireland.

Whether an identity is "imagined" or not is not something I want to be the arbiter of. To me, the term British here seems to indicate a sense of connection and belonging to the UK. Whether or not their identity and culture is at odds with current inhabitants of the British island (which it probably is, and obviously Ulster protestant culture and identity are highly influenced by them being in Ireland) therefore does not seem overly relevant to me. And their ancestors come from the island of Britain anyway.

All national identities are imagined communities as Benedict Andersson pointed out.

Identity is a two way street. In order to belong to a group you need both to identify with it and they need to accept you as one of their own. If the second requirement isn't fulfilled you are just a wannabe. Like a white guy wanting to be Japanese or Native American. Ulster protestans could easily end up being wannabe Brits if enough people on the mainland reject them.

[Lord Halifax]

The partition of Ireland, was a terrible mistake,
We paid the price in England for decades and we are still paying the price, more funding per head on Ulster then most towns and cities across England,
We are stuck with people that oppose Marriage equility, womans Right, and do not believe in our liberal values.
Most English people are sympathetic toward a united Ireland, it's Ulster-Scots that want to be part of our Country...  
But with demographic changes and Catholics becoming a majority it will happen...

part of 'your' country...The UK does not belong to English people. They are everybit as British as your white van Essex Man, one might even claim they are more than him.

If you aren't living in Britain you clearly aren't as British as the people actually living there, no matter how you identify.

This seems overly semantic, as the term British here clearly seems to indicate "UKish" rather than a geographical connection to the island of Great Britain. I fully agree with hnv1 here.

The Ulster Protestant identity was developed in Ireland and is for better or worse (mostly the latter) an Irish identity, a particular Irish version of imagined Britishness that is now at odds with modern British identity and culture as practiced by actual Britons. Even Ian Paisley agreed that he was "an Irish man", a product of Ireland.

Whether an identity is "imagined" or not is not something I want to be the arbiter of. To me, the term British here seems to indicate a sense of connection and belonging to the UK. Whether or not their identity and culture is at odds with current inhabitants of the British island (which it probably is, and obviously Ulster protestant culture and identity are highly influenced by them being in Ireland) therefore does not seem overly relevant to me. And their ancestors come from the island of Britain anyway.

All national identities are imagined communities as Benedict Andersson pointed out.

Identity is a two way street. In order to belong to a group you need both to identify with it and they need to accept you as one of their own. If the second requirement isn't fulfilled you are just a wannabe. Like a white guy wanting to be Japanese or Native American. Ulster protestans could easily end up being wannabe Brits if enough people on the mainland start thinking like Audrey.

Hahaha thinking like Audrey, good one mate,
I have nothing against the people of Ulster, I just don't like their views on abortion and gay marriage..

I don't consider myself British.... I'm English, I was born in England, raised in England, when I travel abroad and people ask me where I'm from I always say I'm from England
I'm indifferent with the term "British"

I couldn't care less if people in Ulster indentify as Irish, British or whatever.. it's non of my bloody business eh ....

Okay, I will remove the reference to you then, but my point still stands.

[Lord Halifax]

lol, the entitlement on the Tories' part is truly pathetic. But then again, entitlement has been the core value of the Tories' social base for almost three centuries now.

What historical event are you referring to?

[Lord Halifax]

The idea that May is going to call a general election after what happened last time is pretty fanciful.

It's not about what May wants. If no Brexit deal can get through parliament then there's no alternative.

Ok, so my desire to get the Tories out of office and Corbyn in agree with you, as does the 'common sense' part of my brain that figures, like you, that they must have an election if they can't pass a Brexit deal because all other options will have been exhausted ...

... but I honestly cannot imagine the Tories in that situation willingly abdicating their power and submitting to an election they would not only likely lose, but lose in such a way that their party and its ideology (or at least its Eurosceptic aspects) would fall into eclipse for a generation. I have no idea what they could or would do instead, but as the saying goes: turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

At the very least, I see the sequence of events leading to an election before March 2019 to be far less likely than the sequence of events that would see the ERG and/or DUP capitulate and accept the Irish backstop, with an agreement barely squeaking through in parliament. I hope I'm wrong on that, though.

Who are they?

[Lord Halifax]

So, we should have just stood aside and let Gaddafi tear Benghazi to pieces?

It was none of our business.