Gay Marriage- a general discussion.

[Lunar]

I oppose gay marriage because of what happened in Sweden. The divorce rate went out of the roof as did births out of wedlock. The Swiss Government blamed gay marriage for their problems with marraige.

Swiss government is blaming their problems on Sweden?  
(Below the belt, I know )

I think you'll find that births out of wedlock have increased in every country.  Many couples have been using Civil Unions rather than the tradional form of marriage in Sweden, which increases births out of wedlock but does not mean that the babies aren't being taken care of by two loving parents.

You say:
Gay marriage -> erosion of the family -> divorce, etc.

I question whether or not allowing gay marriage somehow affects ME in my home in rural California.  Do I suddenly value marriage less because two guys got married?  Do I suddenly love my wife less?

My personal position is that the government shouldn't be involved in recognizing marriage at all.  Leave that to the church.  Have some sort of union program that any two people can use.  You and your mother  can recieve a union and be recognized as an economic unit and recieve hospital benefits if you want.  Basically what Gustaf said.

[Lunar]

So, just because people ignored the bible to forbid interracial marriage, doesn't mean we should again ignore the bible by allowing gay marriage.

What about Athiests/Agnostics, Muslims, Budhists, Hindus, Jews, etc?

[Lunar]

So, just because people ignored the bible to forbid interracial marriage, doesn't mean we should again ignore the bible by allowing gay marriage.

What about Athiests/Agnostics, Muslims, Budhists, Hindus, Jews, etc?

Muslims believe homosexuality is wrong, as do Buddhists, Hindus, and Jews.

You missed one.  And the other religions tend to ignore the Bible.

[Lunar]

In Scandanavia, we see the result of the liberal view winning out.  The number of out-of wedlock births, single parent families, and broken homes is on the rise.  Denmark legalized gay marriage in 1989, Norway inn 1993, and Sweden in 1994.  The result has been a near total collapse of marriage in Scandinavia.  A majority of children born in Denmark have unmarried parents, including 60% of first-born children.  During the nineties, the decade when gay marriage was accepted in Norway and Sweden, the rates for out of wedlock birth rose from 39% to 50% and 49% to 54% respectively.  This all happened during a decade when American out of wedlock birth rates leveled off.  In fact, Sweden (54%), Norway (49%), and Denmark (46%) represent the second, third, and fourth highest rates of illegitimacy in the industrialized world.  Only Iceland is higher.  For the record, the US has a rate of 32%.  It can be said that in Scandanavia, the definition of what is a family no longer focuses on marraige, but on parenthood.  Usually single parenthood, since without marraige the traditional legal bonds that keep father from walking away from their responsibilities are gone.

In other words, gay marriage has destroyed real marriage in Scandinavia in less than a decade.  If this is what you want for America, by all means, suport gay marriage.

Noting that Iceland is the highest, isn't it interesting that four countries with very similar Scandinavian cultures all had this shift, despite whether or not they allow gay marriage (Iceland)?  Perhaps their society as a whole places less emphasis on marriage and more on legal bonds, but that doesn't mean that this is because of allowing gay marriage.

I see you noting that gays started joining in civil unions in this time period.  Also during this time period, out of wedlock births increased somewhat.  I still don't see the link.  

In fact, if these gays were the cause of women getting pregnant outside of marriage, I think the effect wouldn't be so instantaneous.  Your argument is that it de-emphasizes the traditional values, which is more of a gradual occurence over many decades.  Were the out of wedlock births increasing before Sweden legalized it mid-way through the 90's?  Isn't it also interesting to note that before they did even that, that their out of wedlock births were still extremely high?  Wouldn't that require another variable acting on it other than gay marriage?

[Lunar]

You pointed out that this problem exists throughout Scandinavia, including countries that haven't legalized gay marriage.

The leading variable in that wedlock statistic is that plenty of loving couples in Sweden have decided to merely get a civil union and not be officially married by the church.

[Lunar]

I was referring to Iceland.   Anyway, I'm too lazy, but I'm interested in the numbers in Canada and Belgium since it was legalized in both of those.

And it seems like those rates were rapidly rising even before gay marriage was legalized.  I simply see "X happened, Y happened" rather than "X caused Y" here.  I could argue that more seagulls flew over Stockholm in the 90s than any other year, and that out of birth wedlocks also increased but that doesn't prove that one caused the other.

[Lunar]

I think comparing the data for Belgium and Canada would  be far more informative.  Too lazy to do it though.