Israel general discussion

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Let CiF style 'debate' remain on CiF and let Atlas be Atlas.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

I mean, all the rest of this garbage aside, let's not pretend that if Israel "led the fight against ISIL" by hitting them with overwhelming force, you would do anything but call them the new Hitler.

[Famous Mortimer]

You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

These are attitudes common among Bernie supporters and under 30s in general. Israel will not be able to count on unconditional US support for much longer.

[RightBehind]

You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

I mean, all the rest of this garbage aside, let's not pretend that if Israel "led the fight against ISIL" by hitting them with overwhelming force, you would do anything but call them the new Hitler.

ISIL is the enemy. Netanyahu contributed to their rise. Let him help take them out with us.

[RightBehind]

You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

These are attitudes common among Bernie supporters and under 30s in general. Israel will not be able to count on unconditional US support for much longer.

I was against Israel before I even knew who Bernie was. Many of my fellow Americans and myself have been indoctrinated into thinking Israel is so wonderful. Then I learned about the demolitions they have done and the Palestinians they have imprisoned. It made me second guess everything.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

I mean, all the rest of this garbage aside, let's not pretend that if Israel "led the fight against ISIL" by hitting them with overwhelming force, you would do anything but call them the new Hitler.

ISIL is the enemy. Netanyahu contributed to their rise. Let him help take them out with us.

Explain how Netanyahu contributed to ISIL's rise.

[RightBehind]

You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

I mean, all the rest of this garbage aside, let's not pretend that if Israel "led the fight against ISIL" by hitting them with overwhelming force, you would do anything but call them the new Hitler.

ISIL is the enemy. Netanyahu contributed to their rise. Let him help take them out with us.

Explain how Netanyahu contributed to ISIL's rise.

Supporting the U.S. to go to war and topple Saddam, which in turn helped contribute to their rise.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

I mean, all the rest of this garbage aside, let's not pretend that if Israel "led the fight against ISIL" by hitting them with overwhelming force, you would do anything but call them the new Hitler.

ISIL is the enemy. Netanyahu contributed to their rise. Let him help take them out with us.

Explain how Netanyahu contributed to ISIL's rise.

Supporting the U.S. to go to war and topple Saddam, which in turn helped contribute to their rise.

"Standing alongside the US" is hardly some special thing. A whole lot of countries did that.

And I'm sure Israel would be more than happy to aid in killing the scum of ISIL, except that the rest of the anti-ISIL coalition doesn't want their help. The presence of Israel tends to inflame the "Arab street" and would likely rally them to ISIL's side.

Israel doesn't owe anyone anything for supporting the US/UK side in Iraq, but regardless of that, there's reasons they don't take an active role in the fight against ISIL, and it's not because they don't care about the threat.

[Vosem]

You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

These are attitudes common among Bernie supporters and under 30s in general. Israel will not be able to count on unconditional US support for much longer.

Nah, they're not. America is moving towards greater support for Israel, not less, which you can clearly see in polling over the last 15 years. College left-wing activists hate Israel, but then again, they have ever since that became fashionable in the 1980s.

You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies?

Let me go through this post claim by claim.

That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They were.

Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir used some unsavory tactics against the British colonizers, I won't deny that, but then so has every other independence movement in history. Regardless, two men who used unsavory tactics 70 years ago and were last relevant in the Israeli leadership more than 25 years ago don't explain why we shouldn't support Israel now.

That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

If you really think Israel is oppressing Palestinian children, as opposed to the government that bans music and uses them as human shields, you need to rethink your entire worldview. Ayelet Shaked is Justice Minister and has nothing to do with treatment of Palestinian leadership.

Let Israel stand for themselves.

Why? Why should we give up on a fantastic ally that has been unfairly maligned for its entire existence for entirely racist reasons?

Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL.

Unfortunately, the folks on the frontlines against ISIL are unwilling to fight alongside the evil Zionists. If this were not the case, you can rest assured Israel would be there.

I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

First of all -- divestment (which I had the great pleasure to speak out against earlier today at a student government event here at OSU) is an absolutely terrible idea, especially because it would disproportionately hurt the exact same Palestinian children you seemed so concerned about just a few short sentences ago (since many, many Israeli companies employ Palestinians). The leadership of the Palestinian Authority have spoken out against it numerous times over. Unless you're both very anti-Semitic and very anti-Arab/Islamophobic, there's zero reason for you to support divestment.

You keep mentioning the evil atrocities. I'll accept there were crimes committed during the 1940s and 1950s (though they were far outweighed by the reverse ones, and ultimately justified in the context of the time), but I challenge you to find a single one after 1960.

Finally, I long to see the day when the present Gazan leadership is at the Hague (or, even better: put up against the wall by the people they've been oppressing since 2007). Israel will never be there, as you well know.

[RightBehind]

You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

These are attitudes common among Bernie supporters and under 30s in general. Israel will not be able to count on unconditional US support for much longer.

Nah, they're not. America is moving towards greater support for Israel, not less, which you can clearly see in polling over the last 15 years. College left-wing activists hate Israel, but then again, they have ever since that became fashionable in the 1980s.

You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies?

Let me go through this post claim by claim.

That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They were.

Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir used some unsavory tactics against the British colonizers, I won't deny that, but then so has every other independence movement in history. Regardless, two men who used unsavory tactics 70 years ago and were last relevant in the Israeli leadership more than 25 years ago don't explain why we shouldn't support Israel now.

That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

If you really think Israel is oppressing Palestinian children, as opposed to the government that bans music and uses them as human shields, you need to rethink your entire worldview. Ayelet Shaked is Justice Minister and has nothing to do with treatment of Palestinian leadership.

Let Israel stand for themselves.

Why? Why should we give up on a fantastic ally that has been unfairly maligned for its entire existence for entirely racist reasons?

Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL.

Unfortunately, the folks on the frontlines against ISIL are unwilling to fight alongside the evil Zionists. If this were not the case, you can rest assured Israel would be there.

I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

First of all -- divestment (which I had the great pleasure to speak out against earlier today at a student government event here at OSU) is an absolutely terrible idea, especially because it would disproportionately hurt the exact same Palestinian children you seemed so concerned about just a few short sentences ago (since many, many Israeli companies employ Palestinians). The leadership of the Palestinian Authority have spoken out against it numerous times over. Unless you're both very anti-Semitic and very anti-Arab/Islamophobic, there's zero reason for you to support divestment.

You keep mentioning the evil atrocities. I'll accept there were crimes committed during the 1940s and 1950s (though they were far outweighed by the reverse ones, and ultimately justified in the context of the time), but I challenge you to find a single one after 1960.

Finally, I long to see the day when the present Gazan leadership is at the Hague (or, even better: put up against the wall by the people they've been oppressing since 2007). Israel will never be there, as you well know.

Israel will only never be there as long as AIPAC has a firm grip on American politics. Almost every other country around the world can see Israel's crimes. I'm sure we do, but criticizing Israel in this country is an unofficial crime in and of itself.

Israel is not an ally. It is a parasitic nation. Every parasite needs a host to survive. The United States, unfortunately, is that host. I'm not arguing for the destruction if Israel but rather repercussions for the things they have done.

As far as post 1960 goes, just look up the number of UN resolutions they have violated.

Keep in mind I'm not a fan of Sharia Law by any stretch of the imagination. Let's not pretend like Israel is this perfect country that does no wrong. I saw a story last year of an Israeli politician advocating for segregated roads between the two groups. That's apartheid.

Did you read the comments Shaked made? That is advocating of genocide. It's evil. It's ugly. Begin and Shamir were no different than Bibi. The Likud Party brings out a lot of ugliness in Israel. Begin getting the Peace Prize was a joke.

I will not stand with Israel. We owe them absolutely nothing. It's not being anti-Semitic. It's not me being anti-Muslim. This is complete injustice on their end and our hands are tied. If only the politicians in this country all united and rebelled against AIPAC.

My allegiance is to America. Not Israel.

[DavidB.]

Yawn. New trashposter spotted. Enjoy ignore, Berniebro.

This thread is about politics in Israel, not about your irrelevant opinion of Israel.

[RightBehind]

Feel free to ignore me all you'd like. If there's really justice out there, and I believe there is, people will take a stand against Israel and they'll be punished.

[Vosem]

Yawn. New trashposter spotted. Enjoy ignore, Berniebro.

This thread is about politics in Israel, not about your irrelevant opinion of Israel.

God grant me, some day, this attitude when I read ignorance.

Israel will only never be there as long as AIPAC has a firm grip on American politics. Almost every other country around the world can see Israel's crimes.

Except with a few Western European nations, Israel is at the best place, diplomatically, it's been in a long time. It has back-channel relations with numerous Arab nations (especially those that are also very anti-Iran), it has great relations with the US, with India, China, and Russia. And even in Europe, you still have great relations with Germany and Britain. The times when large sections of the world refused to recognize Israel are over, and they're not coming back.

I'm sure we do, but criticizing Israel in this country is an unofficial crime in and of itself.

Not at all. I was just at an event where a bunch of people spoke out in favor of Divest. Criticizing Israel isn't popular because they're on the right, moral side of a conflict that has plagued them for far too long, and everyone recognizes that.

Israel is not an ally. It is a parasitic nation. Every parasite needs a host to survive. The United States, unfortunately, is that host.

Israel was created without US backing and didn't obtain significant US backing until after the first 20 years of its existence. It's a modern, vibrant, First World nation that escaped the last recession and is one of the 10 most militarily powerful nations in the world. Israel could survive without its alliance with the US (though it would be much harder), and certainly benefits much more from it than the US does (though Israeli advances in military and other technology have greatly benefited the US), but its dishonest to say the US doesn't benefit from the alliance as well and its dishonest to say there is not a compelling moral reason to continue it.

I'm not arguing for the destruction if Israel but rather repercussions for the things they have done.

As far as post 1960 goes, just look up the number of UN resolutions they have violated.

Ah, yes. It's not like a UN resolution has ever been taken back or apologized for, and it's not like the US isn't made up of perfectly moral actors who have never done anything wrong. Certainly no dictatorships or otherwise imperfect regimes have membership in that body.

Keep in mind I'm not a fan of Sharia Law by any stretch of the imagination. Let's not pretend like Israel is this perfect country that does no wrong. I saw a story last year of an Israeli politician advocating for segregated roads between the two groups. That's apartheid.

Hey, I heard a story about an American politician who wanted to prevent all Muslims from entering the country. That's racism.

You can't tar an entire country based on one politician.

Did you read the comments Shaked made? That is advocating of genocide. It's evil. It's ugly. Begin and Shamir were no different than Bibi. The Likud Party brings out a lot of ugliness in Israel. Begin getting the Peace Prize was a joke.

Shaked has made a lot of comments, and I don't know about the ones you're referring to. Begin and Shamir were members of a revolutionary organization, the Irgun, that ceased being active after 1948. The Likud Party is a mainstream right-wing party (of which Shaked is not a member, incidentally), whose leadership supports the two-state solution and creation of Palestine (though the party rank-and-file, and other politicians, are split) which is not really extremist in any meaningful way. Extremist politicians do exist in Israel, on the left and right, but you can't tar the entire country based on them.

I do agree with your point about Begin receiving the Peace Prize -- not because I think he was some evil man (quite the reverse), but because I don't think it should go to politicians, rather jailed dissidents and artists who deserve attention much more and receive it much less. But much worse figures than Begin have received it (Yasser Arafat and Le Duc Tho, for a start), so there's other places to begin complaining at.

I will not stand with Israel. We owe them absolutely nothing. It's not being anti-Semitic. It's not me being anti-Muslim. This is complete injustice on their end and our hands are tied. If only the politicians in this country all united and rebelled against AIPAC.

My allegiance is to America. Not Israel.

This is just meaningless platitudes that don't address actual issues at all. Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia do not exist in a vacuum, supporting certain political platforms strengthens them (just as the _trump campaign as a whole is racist, even if far from every individual _trump supporter is a racist). AIPAC's success and America's alliance with Israel have also not taken place in a vacuum.

Feel free to ignore me all you'd like. If there's really justice out there, and I believe there is, people will take a stand against Israel and they'll be punished.

If there were justice out there, buddy, Hamas wouldn't exist, never mind control their own dystopian city-state.

[Famous Mortimer]

Support for Israel is increasing? That's just delusional.

Also, I'm wondering how that bizarre claim is supposed to dovetail with the ever present Jewish claim that "anti-Semitism is on the rise!"

[Vosem]

Support for Israel is increasing? That's just delusional.

I don't know about "are increasing now", but they've definitely seen a very real increase over the past 10 years.

Also, I'm wondering how that bizarre claim is supposed to dovetail with the ever present Jewish claim that "anti-Semitism is on the rise!"

Worldwide, not in America. But, still, both of those things are capable of occurring simultaneously. Only a small percentage of anti-Semites are responsible for anti-Semitic incidents, and it's perfectly plausible for that small percentage to increase even as society as a whole becomes better educated and more tolerant.

[Comrade Funk]

You can't really discuss Israeli politics without discussing American politics because the United States of America is the only thing keeping Israel safe from repercussions of their policies. The only ones who made Israel a partisan issue are Israeli governments who condoned expansionist policies into an Arab-dominated area (post-67), while harping on about how Israel must remain Jewish even as it absorbs and takes Arab land. Of course Netanyahu made it worse by actively supporting the political rival of the sitting head of state in 2012. If he (or any belligerent right-winger) continues to hold on to power, Israel will lose the Democratic Party and rightfully so. Now, some would assume if you're against Israel, you're somehow pro-Hamas. I can't believe I have to say this, but being anti-Israel in some regards doesn't mean anyone condones Palestinian terrorism. One can be against Israeli imperial expansion as well as Palestinian Islamic terrorism, while supporting the level-headed people (I understand there are probably more in Israel, but even that's dwindling) instead.

I'm Jewish and I care about Israel like any immigrant would care about their 'homeland', which is why I actually hope that there is some miracle and Israel somehow elects someone sane and reasonable. That means no BS about building more settlements for "security". Probably won't happen, but hey call me an idealist. Thank god I get to live in America and we don't have to deal with this crap.

Edit: Unless the Donald is elected ofc!

[Famous Mortimer]

You can't really discuss Israeli politics without discussing American politics because the United States of America is the only thing keeping Israel safe from repercussions of their policies. The only ones who made Israel a partisan issue are Israeli governments who condoned expansionist policies into an Arab-dominated area (post-67), while harping on about how Israel must remain Jewish even as it absorbs and takes Arab land. Of course Netanyahu made it worse by actively supporting the political rival of the sitting head of state in 2012. If he (or any belligerent right-winger) continues to hold on to power, Israel will lose the Democratic Party and rightfully so. Now, some would assume if you're against Israel, you're somehow pro-Hamas. I can't believe I have to say this, but being anti-Israel in some regards doesn't mean anyone condones Palestinian terrorism. One can be against Israeli imperial expansion as well as Palestinian Islamic terrorism, while supporting the level-headed people (I understand there are probably more in Israel, but even that's dwindling) instead.

I'm Jewish and I care about Israel like any immigrant would care about their 'homeland', which is why I actually hope that there is some miracle and Israel somehow elects someone sane and reasonable. That means no BS about building more settlements for "security". Probably won't happen, but hey call me an idealist. Thank god I get to live in America and we don't have to deal with this crap.

Edit: Unless the Donald is elected ofc!

Opposing Israel doesn't mean you're necessarily pro-Hamas. Most young people are though. Look at the guy in this thread. He hasn't said a word about Hamas but he's mad because some MK made a racist Facebook status.

[Comrade Funk]

Snip

Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.

[Ebsy]

I do find it mildly amusing that the one Jew in the race for the White House seems to be the most out of touch when in comes to Jewish public opinion in the United States. His AIPAC speech, from Utah of all places, was pretty embarrassing.

[Gass3268]

I do find it mildly amusing that the one Jew in the race for the White House seems to be the most out of touch when in comes to Jewish public opinion in the United States. His AIPAC speech, from Utah of all places, was pretty embarrassing.

I was never prouder to be a Sanders supporter than today when he skipped AIPAC. The remarks Clinton made were nauseating and it really making it hard for me to want to pull the leaver for her in November. Thank God for groups like J-Street are starting to create a counterbalance the nonsense coming from the right.

[Ebsy]

I do find it mildly amusing that the one Jew in the race for the White House seems to be the most out of touch when in comes to Jewish public opinion in the United States. His AIPAC speech, from Utah of all places, was pretty embarrassing.

I was never prouder to be a Sanders supporter than today when he skipped AIPAC. The remarks Clinton made were nauseating and it really making it hard for me to want to pull the leaver for her in November. Thank God for groups like J-Street are starting to create a counterbalance the nonsense coming from the right.

I very much doubt the J-Street would prefer Sanders over Clinton, considering their most prominent founder/donor is George Soros.

[Gass3268]

I do find it mildly amusing that the one Jew in the race for the White House seems to be the most out of touch when in comes to Jewish public opinion in the United States. His AIPAC speech, from Utah of all places, was pretty embarrassing.

I was never prouder to be a Sanders supporter than today when he skipped AIPAC. The remarks Clinton made were nauseating and it really making it hard for me to want to pull the leaver for her in November. Thank God for groups like J-Street are starting to create a counterbalance the nonsense coming from the right.

I very much doubt the J-Street would prefer Sanders over Clinton, considering their most prominent founder/donor is George Soros.

Oh, I don't doubt J-Street prefers Clinton to Sanders. My statement was that I was happy there was the the creation of a liberal pro-Israel/pro-Peace/pro-Two State Solution group to counter the craziness that comes out of the AIPAC.

[dead0man]

You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

I mean, all the rest of this garbage aside, let's not pretend that if Israel "led the fight against ISIL" by hitting them with overwhelming force, you would do anything but call them the new Hitler.

ISIL is the enemy. Netanyahu contributed to their rise. Let him help take them out with us.

Explain how Netanyahu contributed to ISIL's rise.

Supporting the U.S. to go to war and topple Saddam, which in turn helped contribute to their rise.

ahahahahaahahahahahaahah




<inhale>




hahaahahahaha

[dead0man]

Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.

and the uneducated people don't like Israel either.

[RightBehind]

Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.

and the uneducated people don't like Israel either.

So I don't like Israel. Therefore I'm not educated.