UK General Discussion: 2017 and onwards, Mayhem

[Omega21]

It's a lot of bollocks to say the Scots have 'never felt at home' with the union.

Not only does it ignore the entire 19th century, where the Scottish did remarkably well from industrialsation, and empire but it also ignores that in the last two elections in Scotland the unionist parties have done much better than they were doing.

You choose to be rude rather than look at the facts, most of the wealth in Scotland was owned by the privileged few during the heydays of slavery and the tobacco industry, most of the colourful and characteristic buildings in Glasgow were built during that era...

Scotland witnessed unprecedented levels of emigration (more than any part of the UK bar Ireland) to Canada, New Zealand and to lesser extent the US and Australia for centuries.
Some Scots were driven out of their lands by the Lords of MacDonald's and MacLeods in the Isle of Skye but thats another subject.

Since the 50s the Scots had to put up with Tory governments they never voted for because people in London suburbs and the South East vote overwhelmingly Tory...

Demographic changes and the way Scotland is disrespected and ignored by the current Tory government, are creating a fertile ground for independence,
SNP need to wait for the right moment before triggering indyref2, patience is of the essence...

Pretty sure that there was a Labour government in the 1970s that held the first devolution referendum.

Scots voted YES for devolution in 1979 on a 63.72%, but the referendum was stacked in a ridiculous way,
they were disrespected and had to wait 20 years before they got the Scottish parliament.

Kind of off topic, but I need to ask, are you proud to be British/English?

Asking since I already met a guy on here who says he's ashamed of being a white Englishman, so just want to see how popular this sentiment is.


In terms of independence, I think they should be allowed to vote on it every x amount of years, and go their own way if they choose to do so.

Plus, Britain has not been an empire for a long time and is now basically a sidekick of the US, who is the main Imperialist now (In modern terms).

[Former President tack50]

The problem with independence votes is:

1: Eventually, "yes" will win, and then there certainly won't be a referendum to rejoin the UK. That seems kind of unfair.

2: What do you do with say, the 48% of Scots who want to stay in the UK? Force them to move to England? Do the unionist parts of Scotland get the right to secede from the rest of Scotland and join the UK? And if not why not, that seems unfair?

Finally, if you thought Brexit was bad, Scottish (or Welsh I guess) independence would be much, much worse, Scotland is more attached to the UK than the UK is to the EU. (on defense of Scottish secessionists though, at least they had a plan, unlike the Brexiteers)

I see the argument for border polls in Northern Ireland and even that one I very tough to justify for me as per points 1 and 2.

[Omega21]

It's a lot of bollocks to say the Scots have 'never felt at home' with the union.

Not only does it ignore the entire 19th century, where the Scottish did remarkably well from industrialsation, and empire but it also ignores that in the last two elections in Scotland the unionist parties have done much better than they were doing.

You choose to be rude rather than look at the facts, most of the wealth in Scotland was owned by the privileged few during the heydays of slavery and the tobacco industry, most of the colourful and characteristic buildings in Glasgow were built during that era...

Scotland witnessed unprecedented levels of emigration (more than any part of the UK bar Ireland) to Canada, New Zealand and to lesser extent the US and Australia for centuries.
Some Scots were driven out of their lands by the Lords of MacDonald's and MacLeods in the Isle of Skye but thats another subject.

Since the 50s the Scots had to put up with Tory governments they never voted for because people in London suburbs and the South East vote overwhelmingly Tory...

Demographic changes and the way Scotland is disrespected and ignored by the current Tory government, are creating a fertile ground for independence,
SNP need to wait for the right moment before triggering indyref2, patience is of the essence...

Pretty sure that there was a Labour government in the 1970s that held the first devolution referendum.

Scots voted YES for devolution in 1979 on a 63.72%, but the referendum was stacked in a ridiculous way,
they were disrespected and had to wait 20 years before they got the Scottish parliament.

Kind of off topic, but I need to ask, are you proud to be British/English?

Asking since I already met a guy on here who says he's ashamed of being a white Englishman, so just want to see how popular this sentiment is.


In terms of independence, I think they should be allowed to vote on it every x amount of years, and go their own way if they choose to do so.

Plus, Britain has not been an empire for a long time and is now basically a sidekick of the US, who is the main Imperialist now (In modern terms).

I'm a woman ;/
I don't consider myself British at all, I'm English born and bred in Plymouth, England.
I England, but I'm not a nationalist (I strongly deplore nationalism, pride and vanity) and I don't view England as superior to any other nation if that makes sense?!

The empire is gone, but the imperialist mindset still govern the nation unfortunately...

Oh yeah I know, I was referring to the guy I chatted with when I said Englishman.

I also oppose "Ultra nationalism", meaning that you will harm other peoples or countries in order to further your own goals, but that's not what we are talking about.

Nationalism doesn't mean that you think you're superior, but simply proud to be what you are and proud of the things that built your nation (English/British values).

Why are you not proud of the fact that your culture does not oppress women, while many cultures still do?

The double standards are very real today because I see (Insert African nation here) "pride" exhibitions all the time in Vienna in a Socialist Party office, would you dare attack their Nationalism and pride of their heritage, or only if it's white people?

[Omega21]

The double standards are very real today because I see (Insert African nation here) "pride" exhibitions all the time in Vienna in a Socialist Party office, would you dare attack their Nationalism and pride of their heritage, or only if it's white people?

you lost me ....?

Sorry, should've elaborated.

Today, I hear people daily bashing on European nationalism and pride, but yet they encourage Africans, for example, to be proud of their heritage (thus the "African culture pride" exhibitions I see here) and roots, so what I am asking is, are you a part of this group?

[Omega21]

The double standards are very real today because I see (Insert African nation here) "pride" exhibitions all the time in Vienna in a Socialist Party office, would you dare attack their Nationalism and pride of their heritage, or only if it's white people?

you lost me ....?

Sorry, should've elaborated.

Today, I hear people daily bashing on European nationalism and pride, but yet they encourage Africans, for example, to be proud of their heritage (thus the "African culture pride" exhibitions I see here) and roots, so what I am asking is, are you a part of this group?

That's a much more complex and deep argument,
European nationalism led to 2 world wars, and and many wars and battles through the centuries.
African culture have been looked down on and appropriated by europeans for a very long time.

I don't see pride as good thing, nobody is superior, nobody is inferior.
But I do believe we have a moral obligation to help the nations we've systematically used and abused through colonialism,

Yeah, but you can't bash European nationalism and not bash African nationalism, in any case.

Nationalism also kept you from living in the Greater Nazi Reich today, because if it didn't exist, I doubt your ancestors would endure years of living in rubble while Rockets scream from above.

Europeans have also invented the modern World and the very thing you are using to power the device with which you're replying right now, so we've given more than enough to the rest of the world.

Africans would have also done the same (colonise and enslave) if they were more technologically advanced than Europeans, and now, decades after colonialism they still kill each other.

When America freed Black Slaves and sent them to Liberia, these former slaves colonised and enslaved the native blacks, so it's not about culture or nationalism, but who's more powerful. Feel free to look it up.

[Silent Hunter]

There is a difference between patriotism, the nationalism of protecting your freedom and the nationalism of taking others' freedom.

[MABA 2020]

We shouldn't let the right wing have a monopoly on patriotism, you can be proud of your country while also acknowledging crimes committed. In an ideal world I'd like a strong Britain that would use it's power to do some good in the world

[Silent Hunter]

With all due respect, Audrey, much of that destruction was done by the locals to the locals. We aren't responsible for all the wrong in the world.

[Omega21]

With all due respect, Audrey, much of that destruction was done by the locals to the locals. We aren't responsible for all the wrong in the world.

Agreed.

I definitely do not support a lot of UK foreign policy, but what you said is spot on.

[YL]

I find it ironic that a party called "Ourselves Alone" wants Ireland to be part of the Eurozone.

"Sinn Féin" doesn't actually mean "Ourselves Alone".  Simply "Ourselves" or "We Ourselves" are better translations.

[Omega21]

With all due respect, Audrey, much of that destruction was done by the locals to the locals. We aren't responsible for all the wrong in the world.

We're responsible for what happened in Basra, were responsible for bombing Libya, we are responsible for Afghanistan and the mujahideen.
We clearly do not understand that region.

So why didn't you vote for Nigel Farage?

He shares the same opinion and has publicly made it clear on multiple occasions.

[Blair]

Audrey you’re ignoring the fact we only have a Tory govt because of the 13 Tory Gains in 2017- stop thinking of Scotland as one homogenous block of people.

[Blair]

Audrey you’re ignoring the fact we only have a Tory govt because of the 13 Tory Gains in 2017- stop thinking of Scotland as one homogenous block of people.

13 seats / 59 seats  = 22%

Tory share of the vote in Scotland:
2010: 16.9%
2015: 14.8%
2017: 28% (meaning 72% voted against the Tories and this was supposed to be their best showing since 1983)

Tory share of the vote in England:
2010: 39.5%
2015: 40.9%
2017: 45.4%

^^ says it all...

You’re clearly ignoring my argument which is that the A.) The Conservatives became more popular in Scotland in recent years B.) Scotland isn’t just one big voting bloc.

It’s so frustrating as someone who’s actually lived, and got family in Scotland to see it continually typecaseted as something it clearly isn’t.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Nigel Farage unveils plan to form new party to fight 'biggest battle yet' for independence from EU

"I sense within me I have not fought my biggest battle. Whether it is happenstance, serendipity, destiny. I am not going to lie down and watch it go down the plug hole. I couldn't do that. If there are European Parliament elections I am standing."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/08/nigel-farage-unveils-plan-form-new-party-fight-biggest-battle/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

I'm going to meet Farage at the Turning Point Summit in West Palm soon. Somehow, someway, I'll shake his hand. I'll give him my preferred name choice: the British Democrats.

[Silent Hunter]

With all due respect, Audrey, much of that destruction was done by the locals to the locals. We aren't responsible for all the wrong in the world.

We're responsible for what happened in Basra, were responsible for bombing Libya, we are responsible for Afghanistan and the mujahideen.
We clearly do not understand that region.

Last I checked, we don't have a psychic ability to make Libyans fight Libyans. As happened in 2011.

[Silent Hunter]

So, we should have just stood aside and let Gaddafi tear Benghazi to pieces?

Again, how are we responsible for the deliberate choices of Libyans, Iraqis and Syrians? They chose to do these things. Our own actions may have been a contributory factor, but it was their choice.

[Silent Hunter]

The biggest displacement of Iraqi Christians, yazidi genocide, creation of Alqaeda and ISIS all happened after removing Saddam and void left behind.

Those weren't done by us, they were done by Arabs.

Also, Iraq wasn't stable - we were engaged in heavy sanctions against it and had no-fly zones implemented to protect the Kurds and the Shia population in the South.

[Omega21]

We're not a major power anymore and we should stop acting like one, when you think about it our last successful intervention was in the Balkans,

Do you call bombing civilian targets from the Air "successful"?

I assume you are referring to the bombing campaign against Serbia.

[Lord Halifax]

So, we should have just stood aside and let Gaddafi tear Benghazi to pieces?

It was none of our business.

[Silent Hunter]

So, we should have just stood aside and let Gaddafi tear Benghazi to pieces?

It was none of our business.

Do you have no concern with the suffering of your fellow human beings?

[Silent Hunter]

So, what should have been done in Kosovo instead?

[Omega21]

So, what should have been done in Kosovo instead?

Maybe Bridges, factories, Embassies (lol) and Civilians should not have been bombed hundreds of kilometres away from Kosovo?

[Silent Hunter]

So, what should have been done in Kosovo instead?

Maybe Bridges, factories, Embassies (lol) and Civilians should not have been bombed hundreds of kilometres away from Kosovo?

Facilities belonging to the Yugoslav regime and used to support their ethnic cleansing?

[Silent Hunter]

We could've stuck with the sanctions and left iraqis alone.

Saddam would have died at some point and the regime would eventually have come apart. We'd have had to deal with the consequences sooner or later.

Also, re Kosovo. I suggest you have a good think about what you would have been done instead.

[Omega21]

So, what should have been done in Kosovo instead?

Maybe Bridges, factories, Embassies (lol) and Civilians should not have been bombed hundreds of kilometres away from Kosovo?

Facilities belonging to the Yugoslav regime and used to support their ethnic cleansing?

You do realize that Novi Sad was cut in half when all of the bridges were destroyed and that civilians died on the bridges?

The Chinese embassy also had a weapons factory in the basement?

What about the bombing of a refugee column, also used to support ethnic cleansing?