The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

[DrScholl]

Wrong; they can pass anything non budget related with a 50% quorum.

Time to gerrymander.

I didn't mention other measures, just the one being discussed here. The Republicans were already going to gerrymander (perhaps dummymander), so the opportunity is any different right now.

[cinyc]

Really with the way this is played, this is just going to really bite Walker and the Republicans in the ass. As noted most people know at least one public sector and know how ridiculous the "overpaid" nonsense is, especially with teachers. I have a tough time seeing Wisconsin being to the right of North Dakota on this where the vast majority of people would find that claim rather comical.

Republicans should only hope that Democrats misunderstand the optics like you and continue their little political games, like abdicating from their responsibility to govern by leaving the state.  Your average private sector employee sees public employees acting like thugs, protesting the horror of having to do things like *gasp* pay for part of their health insurance, like practically everyone in the private sector.  They see some public employees retiring with bloated, unsustainable pensions that those in the private sector no longer get.  But yet, they are paying for public employees to live higher off the hog than they are.

And when they see their kids' schools closed by "sick" teachers who are miraculously well enough to drive to Madison and protest, the first thing they think of is how those teachers are making them have to scramble to find someone to watch their kids at the last minute, not how underpaid those teachers supposedly are.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here.
As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called.

You don't think this sets a bad precedent?  If they're allowed to get away with this now, you don't think it'll turn into the Democrats (or Republicans in the future, perhaps) skipping town to keep the roll call under quorum for every "important" fight that comes up?

[krazen1211]

I didn't mention other measures, just the one being discussed here. The Republicans were already going to gerrymander (perhaps dummymander), so the opportunity is any different right now.

Oh, that's just the start. It sounds like they can split the budgetary impact away and simply outlaw teacher tenure for a start.

It makes it much easier to do things when you no longer have to deal with any opposition.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Why is it even necessary to run to another state or wherever? Is there some bizarre law in the U.S that means that legislators can be forced to attend? I remember being confused over the Texas thing for the same reason.

Yes.

http://www.slate.com/id/2285532/

"The chief clerk shall immediately call the roll of the members, and note the absentees, whose names shall be read, and entered upon the journal in such manner as to show who are absent with leave and who are absent without leave. The chief clerk shall furnish the sergeant at arms with a list of those who are absent without leave, and the sergeant at arms shall forthwith proceed to find and bring in such absentees."

That is absolutely and utterly insane.

I'm not sure how many states have these laws, but they do seem to be rather impractical, don't they?

It keeps things like this from happening though... makes sense to me.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job.  Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything.

Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome.

[ilikeverin]

This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job.  Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything.

Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome.

I think they're aware it looks like they're being cowards; your reaction is undoubtedly the public's reaction.  It just means they think it's important enough that they should do this.

If your reaction isn't the public's, well, then maybe they're doing something right

[DrScholl]

This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job.  Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything.

Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome.

If the bill wasn't a real problem, they would not have gone to such lengths. I think that some procedural measures like this are necessary, to guard against the majority overstepping with legislation.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job.  Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything.

Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome.

If the bill wasn't a real problem, they would not have gone to such lengths. I think that some procedural measures like this are necessary, to guard against the majority overstepping with legislation.

This isn't procedural... this is not doing your job.  Procedure is a filibuster or other actions in the chambers.  Leaving the state is leaving your job.

[DrScholl]

This isn't procedural... this is not doing your job.  Procedure is a filibuster or other actions in the chambers.  Leaving the state is leaving your job.

Well, the majority can't do anything without a quorum, so it does relate to procedure.

[The Dowager Mod]

The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here.
As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called.

Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right?  I wonder how they should be dealt with, they are refusing to follow orders.

If Walker tries to call out the guard he has no future in politics no matter how heroic it seems to conservatives, Americans do not enjoy the sight of the military beating up peaceful protesters, some of us learned a thing or two from the sixties.
And if he does end up paying us like they pay teachers in Mississipi or some other anti worker state Wisconsin will get the same low quality education they get, not everyone can afford to send their kids to a fancy private school like Walker and his rich buddies who will end up getting the money they take from the teachers in another tax break.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

This isn't procedural... this is not doing your job.  Procedure is a filibuster or other actions in the chambers.  Leaving the state is leaving your job.

Well, the majority can't do anything without a quorum, so it does relate to procedure.

But I'm guessing that you'd oppose the Sergeant at Arms bringing these people back into the chamber... as is legal procedure?

[DrScholl]

But I'm guessing that you'd oppose the Sergeant at Arms bringing these people back into the chamber... as is legal procedure?

The Sergeant at Arms has to do their job regardless, so had they remained in the jurisdiction and being returned to the capitol, there would be no legit reason to oppose that.

[Smash255]

Horrible People for blocking a good piece of legislation. The GOP agenda in these state is not extreme considering that they were elected to right the wrong of fiscal insanity that Wisconsion has had with the radical progressive agenda. So to say it, I'm for the employee but in times like this sacrifices must be made. Allow teachers to opt out of being in unions.   The right has made her sacrifices for a long time. Now the left must make many of their own.

As PX75's article points out more than half the deficit is due to programs Walker has put in place after he got elected.  Not to mention if getting costs down was such a concern don't you think it would be a good idea to hold the police and Firefighters Unions to the same rules you are holding the teachers and other Unions to?

[Lunar]

This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job.  Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything.

Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome.

If the bill wasn't a real problem, they would not have gone to such lengths. I think that some procedural measures like this are necessary, to guard against the majority overstepping with legislation.

This isn't procedural... this is not doing your job.  Procedure is a filibuster or other actions in the chambers.  Leaving the state is leaving your job.

It's like going on strike, regardless of which side of the Wisconsin-Illinois border they are on -- but striking is not the same abandonment of responsibility that the phrase "leaving your job" would imply

[All Along The Watchtower]

Walker's programs have nothing to do with "shared sacrifice." They have everything to do with punishing the working class.

Good on those lawmakers who are stopping this crap.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Well, it's good to know which side you are on.

This thread has shed light on that.

All that matters in politics, is if you're on the side of the haves, or the have nots.

[cinyc]

Well, it's good to know which side you are on.

This thread has shed light on that.

All that matters in politics, is if you're on the side of the haves, or the have nots.

That's awfully simplistic.  Who are the have-nots here?  Unionized public employees or those who make substantially less than them yet pay their salaries?

[tpfkaw]

Well, it's good to know which side you are on.

This thread has shed light on that.

All that matters in politics, is if you're on the side of the haves, or the have nots.

That's awfully simplistic.  Who are the have-nots here?  Unionized public employees or those who make substantially less than them but yet pay their salaries?

Silly cinyc, a "have not" is a wealthy white person who votes Democratic.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Hard to call a woman that term.  Especially Texasgurl, who I've known on the forum for many years.  You, on the other hand...

There are lesbians too you know.
And having an insensitive and arrogant frat boy like you calling me a f****t is a badge of honor.
You know, something like Stark calling me a Zionist.

[redcommander]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

[cinyc]

The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here.
As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called.

Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right?  I wonder how they should be dealt with, they are refusing to follow orders.

If Walker tries to call out the guard he has no future in politics no matter how heroic it seems to conservatives, Americans do not enjoy the sight of the military beating up peaceful protesters, some of us learned a thing or two from the sixties.
And if he does end up paying us like they pay teachers in Mississipi or some other anti worker state Wisconsin will get the same low quality education they get, not everyone can afford to send their kids to a fancy private school like Walker and his rich buddies who will end up getting the money they take from the teachers in another tax break.

Let's make one thing clear: Governor Walker NEVER threatened to call out the national guard if government workers protested his proposed changes to bargaining laws.  That's an extremely dishonest meme pushed by the Progressive Change Campaign Committee.  PolitiFact calls is a pants-on-fire lie.  And the Wisconsin National Guard hasn't been called up for anything.

But we here on the Atlas Forum all know that Talking Points Memo is always right and "progressives" can't lie - so they must just be making that up.

[Landslide Lyndon]

The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here.
As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called.

Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right?  I wonder how they should be dealt with, they are refusing to follow orders.

If Walker tries to call out the guard he has no future in politics no matter how heroic it seems to conservatives, Americans do not enjoy the sight of the military beating up peaceful protesters, some of us learned a thing or two from the sixties.
And if he does end up paying us like they pay teachers in Mississipi or some other anti worker state Wisconsin will get the same low quality education they get, not everyone can afford to send their kids to a fancy private school like Walker and his rich buddies who will end up getting the money they take from the teachers in another tax break.

Let's make one thing clear: Governor Walker NEVER threatened to call out the national guard if government workers protested his proposed changes to bargaining laws.  That's an extremely dishonest meme pushed by the Progressive Change Campaign Committee.  PolitiFact calls is a pants-on-fire lie.  And the Wisconsin National Guard hasn't been called up for anything.

But we here on the Atlas Forum all know that Talking Points Memo is always right and "progressives" can't lie - so they must just be making that up.

Talking Points Memo for your information is a much more credible source of news than your beloved FOX. They have gotten numerous journalistic awards, and for a good reason.

As for the budget numbers you so cavalierly dismissed as an "evil liberal plot", they were posted by the Wisconsin budget office which is a non-partisan state organization, like the CBO is for congress.

Better luck next time you try refuting facts with lies cinyc.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years.

[Wiz in Wis]

The issue isn't pay, or benefits, it's removing collective bargaining. And for those of you who are citing Texas as a precedent, Wisconsin isn't Texas. There are quite a few Republicans in the legislature who won by a few hundred votes, many of them public workers or their families. They are going to have an army of union workers against them.  The Texas Dems didn't have 50,000 workers supporting them in Austin.