Libya: Benghazi unrest, to Civil War, to a new government and Gaddafi's death.

[opebo]

And, did you watch the clip of the woman who was gangraped? I'm curious as to whether you think she deserved it because she was a Libyan and it's part of their culture to gangrape women or simply because she's a woman and they all have it coming?

No, I don't do those kind of searches, unlike you.  But I think gangrape happens all over the place, and I cannot say that I have any ambition to do anything about it, even if I could.  Remember the gangrape of the blonde Western journalist by the 'freedom fighters' in the mob in Cairo?  I suspect that these gonadal crimes arise from all sides - another proof that they're all 'bad', and to claim we are fighting for 'truth, justice, and human dignity' is a load of crap.

(and before anyone gives me deathpoints for the above, it was your own Gustaf who brought up this incendiary topic of gangrap - I was only responding)

[Gustaf]

And, did you watch the clip of the woman who was gangraped? I'm curious as to whether you think she deserved it because she was a Libyan and it's part of their culture to gangrape women or simply because she's a woman and they all have it coming?

No, I don't do those kind of searches, unlike you.  But I think gangrape happens all over the place, and I cannot say that I have any ambition to do anything about it, even if I could.  Remember the gangrape of the blonde Western journalist by the 'freedom fighters' in the mob in Cairo?  I suspect that these gonadal crimes arise from all sides - another proof that they're all 'bad', and to claim we are fighting for 'truth, justice, and human dignity' is a load of crap.

(and before anyone gives me deathpoints for the above, it was your own Gustaf who brought up this incendiary topic of gangrap - I was only responding)

Actually, if your cognitive abilities weren't so limited you would realize that I was referencing the post just above mine relating that story and showing a clip of the woman who was gangraped - not one of the actual rape (that wouldn't be something I would want to watch). So I didn't really bring it up.

But I see you've avoided my point regarding Qadaffi and sharia law to instead come up with another ludicrous assertion regarding moral relativism. The behaviour of some people in an unruly mob is obviously not comparable to those of the government's secret police. I would've thought you with your worship of totalitarian governments and their torture chambers would be well aware of that?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Ras Lanuf and Ben Jawad both fell in the same day.

[opebo]

Actually, if your cognitive abilities weren't so limited you would realize that I was referencing the post just above mine relating that story and showing a clip of the woman who was gangraped - not one of the actual rape (that wouldn't be something I would want to watch).

The fact that I do not read affleitch's posts is hardly evidence of lack of cognitive ability, Gustaf.

[2952-0-0]

Anyone else think we're watching a real-life version of Mad Max?

[GMantis]

If the rebells attack Sirte, will the coalition continue to support them with air strikes? And will they still use the excuse of protecting the civilians?

[GMantis]

By the way, regarding Opebo's idea that the "beards" are behind the uprising, it seems that actual "beards" do not share this view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq4el7gyPas&feature=player_embedded#at=36
Of course, they say against Gadhafi and only oppose the foreign intervention, but considering that Gaddafi would probably have destroyed the uprising by now, they don't seem to have much regard for it as well.

[J. J.]

Anyone else think we're watching a real-life version of Mad Max?

"We don't need another hero?"

[2952-0-0]

It's been reported that Sirte has fallen without much resistance, and that a column of military vehicles fled westwards. Don't know what to make of this, given that both sides aren't very truthful.

[Associate Justice PiT]

It's been reported that Sirte has fallen without much resistance, and that a column of military vehicles fled westwards. Don't know what to make of this, given that both sides aren't very truthful.

     Given Sirt's status as Qaddafi's hometown & a fairly important point of defense for him, I doubt that it fell that easily. Both sides have lied plenty in this conflict, & I am reticent to believe anything not corroborated by foreign media.

[Gustaf]

Actually, if your cognitive abilities weren't so limited you would realize that I was referencing the post just above mine relating that story and showing a clip of the woman who was gangraped - not one of the actual rape (that wouldn't be something I would want to watch).

The fact that I do not read affleitch's posts is hardly evidence of lack of cognitive ability, Gustaf.

Failing to grasp the context of a discussion is a sign of something. And you obviously read his posts on moderating you since you were so up in arms over them (until you went back to reporting everything that disagreed with you, of course).

[Verily]

It's been reported that Sirte has fallen without much resistance, and that a column of military vehicles fled westwards. Don't know what to make of this, given that both sides aren't very truthful.

     Given Sirt's status as Qaddafi's hometown & a fairly important point of defense for him, I doubt that it fell that easily. Both sides have lied plenty in this conflict, & I am reticent to believe anything not corroborated by foreign media.

True; however, Sirte was primarily a Qaddafi fortress due to the large loyalist military presence there early on, not necessarily due to much sympathy for him. We'll see.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Remind me the U.S.' vital interest there again?  Oh, wait, OIL!!!!!!!

Damn that Bush Obama for getting us into a fight over oil.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

There's a difference between trying to stop Gaddafi from massacring Bengazi and helping the rebels (or, according to Mr. Sarkozy, "peaceful protestors" ) conquering areas, like Sitra, where Gaddafi is actually popular and where the people don't want them.

Coallition is basically taking a side in a civil war. Big mistake and stupidity.

Remind me the U.S.' vital interest there again?  Oh, wait, OIL!!!!!!!

Damn that Bush Obama for getting us into a fight over oil.

Again, I really wonder how many Atlas liberals, that are so enthusiastic toward this operation, would be enthusiastic if Bush still were in power and joined the coallition.

[Associate Justice PiT]

It's been reported that Sirte has fallen without much resistance, and that a column of military vehicles fled westwards. Don't know what to make of this, given that both sides aren't very truthful.

     Given Sirt's status as Qaddafi's hometown & a fairly important point of defense for him, I doubt that it fell that easily. Both sides have lied plenty in this conflict, & I am reticent to believe anything not corroborated by foreign media.

True; however, Sirte was primarily a Qaddafi fortress due to the large loyalist military presence there early on, not necessarily due to much sympathy for him. We'll see.

     Some people have referred to this as largely a tribal conflict. If they're correct, than the people of Sirt should be very strongly pro-Qaddafi, since they are typically of his own tribe. The fighting over this city might serve as a test of that hypothesis.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Remind me the U.S.' vital interest there again?  Oh, wait, OIL!!!!!!!

Damn that Bush Obama for getting us into a fight over oil.

If our only interest was in the oil, the sensible thing would have been to support Gaddafi early so that he could continue selling it as he had been.  Whatever else this has been, it hasn't been a war about oil.  What it could easily turn into is a war for water, especially if Gaddaffi decides to pull a Samson in the temple and smash the Great Man-Made River before he dies.  Libya's population has grown so much, and the coastal aquifiers have become so salinized that if it were knocked out, there would be a serious water shortage in Libya.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Remind me the U.S.' vital interest there again?  Oh, wait, OIL!!!!!!!

Damn that Bush Obama for getting us into a fight over oil.

If our only interest was in the oil, the sensible thing would have been to support Gaddafi early so that he could continue selling it as he had been.  Whatever else this has been, it hasn't been a war about oil.  What it could easily turn into is a war for water, especially if Gaddaffi decides to pull a Samson in the temple and smash the Great Man-Made River before he dies.  Libya's population has grown so much, and the coastal aquifiers have become so salinized that if it were knocked out, there would be a serious water shortage in Libya.

Ernest, was I dreaming when the Libyans were threatening to destroy oil wells?  Keeping oil flowing out of Libya is our only "vital interest".

[Lief 🗽]

There's a difference between trying to stop Gaddafi from massacring Bengazi and helping the rebels (or, according to Mr. Sarkozy, "peaceful protestors" ) conquering areas, like Sitra, where Gaddafi is actually popular and where the people don't want them.

Coallition is basically taking a side in a civil war. Big mistake and stupidity.

Remind me the U.S.' vital interest there again?  Oh, wait, OIL!!!!!!!

Damn that Bush Obama for getting us into a fight over oil.

Again, I really wonder how many Atlas liberals, that are so enthusiastic toward this operation, would be enthusiastic if Bush still were in power and joined the coallition.

If he acted as Obama has (joining an international coalition, getting UNSC approval, involving Arab states) then I would have easily supported him. Preventing mass murder is more important than partisanship. 

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

It's been reported that Sirte has fallen without much resistance, and that a column of military vehicles fled westwards. Don't know what to make of this, given that both sides aren't very truthful.

     Given Sirt's status as Qaddafi's hometown & a fairly important point of defense for him, I doubt that it fell that easily. Both sides have lied plenty in this conflict, & I am reticent to believe anything not corroborated by foreign media.

True; however, Sirte was primarily a Qaddafi fortress due to the large loyalist military presence there early on, not necessarily due to much sympathy for him. We'll see.

     Some people have referred to this as largely a tribal conflict. If they're correct, than the people of Sirt should be very strongly pro-Qaddafi, since they are typically of his own tribe. The fighting over this city might serve as a test of that hypothesis.

If you're reffering to Gaddafi's own tribe, then indeed.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Ernest, was I dreaming when the Libyans were threatening to destroy oil wells?  Keeping oil flowing out of Libya is our only "vital interest".

It's Italy's vital interest because Libya has been their primary source of crude.  Libya has been supplying only 2% of world oil production.  Interruption of that flow has caused some short term problems, but is hardly a vital interest of the United States.  The spike in oil prices has been more about concerns that the Gulf states (including the Saudis) might go up in flames than the effects of interruptions in Libyan oil.

If our primary concern had been oil, the sensible thing to do would have been to support Mubarak and Gaddafi from the start so as to avoid large scale disruptions in the oil supply.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

It's amazing how we've played ball with dictators for countless years in the name of oil.....and still do.

[Antonio the Sixth]

There's a difference between trying to stop Gaddafi from massacring Bengazi and helping the rebels (or, according to Mr. Sarkozy, "peaceful protestors" ) conquering areas, like Sitra, where Gaddafi is actually popular and where the people don't want them.

Coallition is basically taking a side in a civil war. Big mistake and stupidity.

The goal has never been to merely protect civilians. We want rebels to win and we want Gaddafi to lose, because this is what the Libyan people wants. And we are ready to help ensuring this happens since we can. I don't see what's wrong with that.

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I'm easily exempted of this attack. My President is a retarded nutjob who has done only inanities since he is in power, and who would certainly have supported Bush's silly war. Yet he has done the right thing (and the reasons why he did are irrelevant).

[Insula Dei]

^^^^^^

I don't like my PM, I don't like Cameron and I don't like Sarkozy and yet I'm all in favour of an operation which all three are involved in and which the latter two more or less set up.

[bgwah]

The goal has never been to merely protect civilians.

Well, the UN sanctioned measures to protect civilians...

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Not all of them.

[hawkeye59]

The goal has never been to merely protect civilians.

Well, the UN sanctioned measures to protect civilians...

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Not all of them.

Yes, but a majority.