France General Discussion II: Living under Marxism

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Hmm, I spoke about actual change, the political level creates none of the change, it accepts a reality or tries to fight it. The society changes by itself, the political level can't go beyond what a society actually is. The 'change' they brought through their programs is some change a society already wishes, they create nothing. Each time it tried, they had some problems, millions of people paid the price of this fantasy notably in the 20th century (gosh what a sake we have left that epoch...).

In short the only change they can bring effectively is an administrative one, which isn't necessarily something slight, and it's necessary, it's called Right, and can be tough to gain, Syrians would be able to witness that nowadays to take an obvious example, or women who fought for having abortions, or black people for civil rights and so on, but once again, the political creates none of the actually occurring change of a society.

Civilization doesn't wait Politics to change (thankfully!), or one more time, each time some tried, ils ont eu des problèmes... (it's better to put a Régis and Laspalès video, than one recapitulating all the colonial empires, the USSR, all the 'Communist' and Fascist regimes and so many of those fancy stuffs brought by the 20th century, isn't it?). It accepts it or not. It deals with a reality of a society actually is and wishes. And in French nowadays society what are the deep changes that are wished...?

Hollande fits pretty much what the French society is, add to this his personal quality, and really he doesn't deserve some fuss against him, neither does most of what the Socialiste administration did.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Politics can and do change things. Look at history, there are plenty of examples of this.

If I thought for a single instant that the politicians' only job was to "deal with an already existing reality", I wouldn't bother voting.

[Zanas]

Politics can and do change things. Look at history, there are plenty of examples of this.

If I thought for a single instant that the politicians' only job was to "deal with an already existing reality", I wouldn't bother voting.

Which is what a growing number of our contemporaneous do, actually, because of people like Benwah...

What a pity. Benwah, do you really think that there is absolutely no political influence on how and where a society changes ? In that case, I really don't get why you would prefer any political side to another...

[big bad fab]

I'd like to state that I warmly support Jérôme Cahuzac.

Nobody cares, I know, but, well, I've always supported politicians who want to do something, whatever their personal probity. At one point, moral corruption is the big thing, not financial one.
And I'm fed up with these medias that view themselves as "picking angels" or Archangel Michael or St.Peter just after your death...

BTW, the attack on Cahuzac is another sign that the leftist basis will soon enter into rebellion against Hollande.
Though he has dropped in polls, it's only among rightists, centrists and FN voters for the moment. But, soon, with civil servants and local public bodies which will be trounced and strangled (as they'd NEVER have been under Sarkozy... and IF Cahuzac is still here to make all the cuts needed...), let's expect a big disappointment and then a big rebellion from public TUs and even from some local socialist barons.

So, forward, Cahuzac and Mosco !

[Antonio the Sixth]

Anyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty, and many have said that they don't recognize Cahuzac's voice in the registration. However, if it's true, that's absolutely unforgivable. You can't be a minister (especially a left-wing minister) asking people for sacrifices of all sorts while your money is safely hidden in some tax heaven. That's just disgusting. You know how much I despise Woerth, I won't treat Cahuzac differently because he's left-wing.

as they'd NEVER have been under Sarkozy...

Really? Really?!?

[big bad fab]

I won't despise Cahuzac because I don't despise Woerth
People want to have Saints in government whil they don't believe in God any longer: it's quite difficult

As for civil servants, just wait for 2013: it'll be very, very bloody...
Already, we see our everyday budgets being cut.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Constitutional Council (our SC) just overturned Hollande's 75% tax bill, on a technicality. Just when the government seemingly could not prove any more incompetent, it turns out they are even unable to properly draft legislation.

[Hash]

There's going to be some big anti-gay marriage/adoption 'manif' on Sunday, which is going to have an interesting mix of charming people - Collard, PanzerMiss and PanzerDaddy (but not PanzerGirl), Gollnisch (Holocaust denier), JF Cope (vote rigger) and his tool (Jacob), Hortefeux, Pecresse, Bertrand alongside a nice mix of far-right reactionary Catholics, neo-Nazi types, assorted skinheads, homophobes and the like. I'm sure the browns and Muslims will be pleased to know that the far-right and the UMP doesn't hate only them...

Le Monde has details: http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2013/01/09/mariage-gay-qui-ira-manifester-a-l-ump-et-au-fn_1814269_823448.html
It also provides a nice list of raging homophobes vs. more tolerable opponents

[Antonio the Sixth]

Pécresse too? Dear Lord...

[Frodo]

French protest at Eiffel Tower against plan to legalise gay marriage and adoption

By Tom Heneghan
JANUARY 13, 2013

Several hundred thousand people massed at the Eiffel Tower in Paris on Sunday to protest against President Francois Hollande’s plan to legalize gay marriage and adoption by June.

Three columns of protesters, waving pink and blue flags showing a father, mother and two children, converged on the landmark from different meeting points in Paris. Many came after long train and bus rides from the provinces.

Champ de Mars park at the Eiffel Tower was packed, but turnout estimates varied widely. Organisers claimed 800,000 had protested, while police put the number at 340,000, high even in protest-prone France.

Hollande has pledged to push through the law with his Socialists’ parliamentary majority but the opponents’ campaign has dented public support and forced deputies to put off a plan to allow lesbian couples access to artificial insemination.

“Nobody expected this two or three months ago,” said Frigide Barjot, a flamboyant comedian leading the “Demo for All”. At the rally, she read out a letter to Hollande asking him to withdraw the draft bill and hold an extended public debate on the issue.

Strongly backed by the Catholic Church hierarchy, Barjot and groups working with her mobilized church-going families and political conservatives as well as some Muslims, Protestant evangelicals and even homosexuals opposed to gay marriage to protest.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I still doubt Hollande will give up on this. He has to give something to his base, which is already pissed off by his fiscal policies and will be even more once the serious spending cuts kick in. Societal reforms are a good way to gain leftist credentials without having to spend much.

Frigide Barjot

OMG. I assume that's not her real name.

[Kitteh]

Societal reforms are a good way to gain leftist credentials without having to spend much.

*cough* David Cameron *cough*

[Antonio the Sixth]

Societal reforms are a good way to gain leftist credentials without having to spend much.

*cough* David Cameron *cough*

Cameron did not really need leftist credentials, though.

[Kitteh]

Societal reforms are a good way to gain leftist credentials without having to spend much.

*cough* David Cameron *cough*

Cameron did not really need leftist credentials, though.

No, in his case I meant "moderate" credentials to hide right-wing economic policy.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Societal reforms are a good way to gain leftist credentials without having to spend much.

*cough* David Cameron *cough*

Cameron did not really need leftist credentials, though.

No, in his case I meant "moderate" credentials to hide right-wing economic policy.

But Hollande does not have large segments of his own party fiercely opposed to gay marriage, fortunately.

[Hash]

Hollande would be unbelievably retarded to backtrack on this (well, he already is unbelievably retarded, but that's another matter). Nobody besides a small collection of reactionary olds and the usual homophobes actually cares all that much about this, and when pressed it's something like 60% who want gay marriage (sure, gay adoption isn't as popular, but still).

[You kip if you want to...]

Societal reforms are a good way to gain leftist credentials without having to spend much.

*cough* David Cameron *cough*

Exactly. Fine in opposition. In government it just looks like you're leaving the rest of the country to it.

[Tender Branson]

Apparently, support for SSM in France has collapsed from about 70% to 50% within the past year.

How accurate is this ?

[Hash]

Apparently, support for SSM in France has collapsed from about 70% to 50% within the past year.

How accurate is this ?

No, support for marriage has hovered between 60 and 65% since 2004.

[afleitch]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/27/french-rally-support-gay-marriage-bill

Love you France

[Hifly]

Love you France

There was an anti gay marriage protest 2 weeks before which attracted 3 times the number of protesters. Do you hate France now?

[afleitch]

Love you France

There was an anti gay marriage protest 2 weeks before which attracted 3 times the number of protesters. Do you hate France now?

New thing. Welcome to the board I moderate

I'm aware of the protest a few weeks ago. It's very easy to get people to march against something, especially if you happen to have churches ready to bus people into the city. It's not so easy to have a march for gay rights that attracts the number that marched yesterday.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yeah, the silent majority sides with the government (and with History) on this issue, and I am confident that this will easily get through no matter how much the paranoid reactionaries will whine.

[Hash]

There's also way less reasons to go out and support the law, because (a) while most support gay marriage, few are really fired up about it - unlike opponents, which are a majority but way more fired up; (b) the supporters don't need to pressure anybody because the government won't back down a lot so going out to support the law is kind of useless and really symbolic  - otoh, the opponents by going out in big numbers may hope to pressure the government into changing its position (which won't happen, because even Flanby and his nincompoops aren't that retarded).

[You kip if you want to...]

Mali?

http://www.liberation.fr/politiques/2013/01/28/les-sondages-un-peu-moins-mauvais-pour-hollande-et-ayrault_877399