Israel

[BenNebbich]

sorry.

they have to accept the facts.

great britain won't get the usa back.

germany won't get the lost territories in eastern europe back.

france won't get louisiana back.

spain won't get floridas back.

spain won't get the netherlands back.

and (surprise)

the arabs won't get jerusalem or any other piece of israel back.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

While I don't like the use of the Holocaust to justify the State of Israel, Israel is a necessary country in the proper place.  If the Arabs would stop attacking, a peace settlement could be reached.  However, the Arabs refuse to have peace.  When the leaders of bordering countries are calling for your extermination, you need to be always prepared.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I wish that when people comment on the current situation regarding Israel and the Palestinians that they would actually comment on the current situation rather than a garbled version of the situation sixty years ago.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Anyway, Bavaria was not the traditional home of the Jewish people (in Europe, that was Poland).

Well, Fürth sort-of was on a small scale.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I wish that when people comment on the current situation regarding Israel and the Palestinians that they would actually comment on the current situation rather than a garbled version of the situation sixty years ago.

^^^^^^^^^^^^

[BenNebbich]

...Israel is a necessary country in the proper place.  If the Arabs would stop attacking, a peace settlement could be reached.  However, the Arabs refuse to have peace.  When the leaders of bordering countries are calling for your extermination, you need to be always prepared.

yes, yes and yes!

nothing left to say.

[dead0man]

sorry.

they have to accept the facts.

great britain won't get the usa back.

germany won't get the lost territories in eastern europe back.

france won't get louisiana back.

spain won't get floridas back.

spain won't get the netherlands back.

and (surprise)

the arabs won't get jerusalem or any other piece of israel back.

While I don't like the use of the Holocaust to justify the State of Israel, Israel is a necessary country in the proper place.  If the Arabs would stop attacking, a peace settlement could be reached.  However, the Arabs refuse to have peace.  When the leaders of bordering countries are calling for your extermination, you need to be always prepared.

I'd like Xahar to comment on these two points.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

While I don't like the use of the Holocaust to justify the State of Israel, Israel is a necessary country in the proper place.  If the Arabs would stop attacking, a peace settlement could be reached.  However, the Arabs refuse to have peace.  When the leaders of bordering countries are calling for your extermination, you need to be always prepared.

I think it's easy for Americans to condemn Arabs position because they can't spontaneously understand their position. US has not border problems for a very long time and they always won their border problem. Europe has not for 60 years and there are still problems (Belgium, Spain, Scotland, Ex-Yugoslavia, others I don't think...).

Well, concerning Arabs, they were there for a very very long time (see my last posts of this thread), and suddenly it is said them: "Hey we want the land, that's ours" "Why?" "That's ours, that's the Jew land and we want it" "OK but that's a long time we are here now" "We don't care, we want the land". And, as all the peoples who are disagree for a land, they fought, Jews won.

OK, so Arabs can be disagree, can dislike it, why should they accept the Jews? For which principles do they have to give up the fight?

Clearly, I'm really fed up with this conflict, and I don't care about who will own the land, or what will be the future of this land. I would like we let them in this affair and that we no more try to find justification to one or the other. They can't speak? They can't be OK? So, go, fight, if you're just able to do this...

I just would like we stop to support one or the other one, I would like we try to put energy in something more interesting...

Otherwise, if we continue in this way, Xahar said it, we could see apocalypse. It could be because of the Temple, because of the Table of laws, or all other sorts of past relics of the monotheists religions. Because if the "new life" of old past religion becomes more and more important as it currently does, we will have fanatic leaders leading countries all other the world, and I think that fanatic leaders could be really less careful with the nuke buttons if you know what I mean...

[Хahar 🤔]

sorry.

they have to accept the facts.

great britain won't get the usa back.

germany won't get the lost territories in eastern europe back.

france won't get louisiana back.

spain won't get floridas back.

spain won't get the netherlands back.

and (surprise)

the arabs won't get jerusalem or any other piece of israel back.

While I don't like the use of the Holocaust to justify the State of Israel, Israel is a necessary country in the proper place.  If the Arabs would stop attacking, a peace settlement could be reached.  However, the Arabs refuse to have peace.  When the leaders of bordering countries are calling for your extermination, you need to be always prepared.

I'd like Xahar to comment on these two points.

All of those territories were lost before WWII, when the gain of territory via conquest was still internationally acceptable.

[Gustaf]

Xahar, I don't see what your principle is exactly. You don't think countries that attack other countries have themselves to blame if they lose territory in the process? And you think terrorism is justified? You should work a little at dropping your prejudices and think about whether there are any fundamental sound principles actually compatible with your views.

[Хahar 🤔]

Xahar, I don't see what your principle is exactly. You don't think countries that attack other countries have themselves to blame if they lose territory in the process? And you think terrorism is justified? You should work a little at dropping your prejudices and think about whether there are any fundamental sound principles actually compatible with your views.

1. I'm talking about settlers beyond the Green Line.
2. Justified, to some extent.

[Gustaf]

Xahar, I don't see what your principle is exactly. You don't think countries that attack other countries have themselves to blame if they lose territory in the process? And you think terrorism is justified? You should work a little at dropping your prejudices and think about whether there are any fundamental sound principles actually compatible with your views.

1. I'm talking about settlers beyond the Green Line.
2. Justified, to some extent.

THen it would be justified for Israel to exterminate the Arab population on Israeli territory, I suppose? At least to some extent?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Otherwise, if we continue in this way, Xahar said it, we could see apocalypse.

Hmm...? things aren't great, but they're better than a few years ago, surely?

[Хahar 🤔]

Xahar, I don't see what your principle is exactly. You don't think countries that attack other countries have themselves to blame if they lose territory in the process? And you think terrorism is justified? You should work a little at dropping your prejudices and think about whether there are any fundamental sound principles actually compatible with your views.

1. I'm talking about settlers beyond the Green Line.
2. Justified, to some extent.

THen it would be justified for Israel to exterminate the Arab population on Israeli territory, I suppose? At least to some extent?

Xahar, I don't see what your principle is exactly. You don't think countries that attack other countries have themselves to blame if they lose territory in the process? And you think terrorism is justified? You should work a little at dropping your prejudices and think about whether there are any fundamental sound principles actually compatible with your views.

1. I'm talking about settlers beyond the Green Line.
2. Justified, to some extent.

THen it would be justified for Israel to exterminate the Arab population on Israeli territory, I suppose? At least to some extent?

The ones that have moved there since 1947, yes, to some extent.

[dead0man]

If all Jews moved back inside the green line, do you think the attacks against Israel would stop?

[Gustaf]

Xahar, I don't see what your principle is exactly. You don't think countries that attack other countries have themselves to blame if they lose territory in the process? And you think terrorism is justified? You should work a little at dropping your prejudices and think about whether there are any fundamental sound principles actually compatible with your views.

1. I'm talking about settlers beyond the Green Line.
2. Justified, to some extent.

THen it would be justified for Israel to exterminate the Arab population on Israeli territory, I suppose? At least to some extent?

Xahar, I don't see what your principle is exactly. You don't think countries that attack other countries have themselves to blame if they lose territory in the process? And you think terrorism is justified? You should work a little at dropping your prejudices and think about whether there are any fundamental sound principles actually compatible with your views.

1. I'm talking about settlers beyond the Green Line.
2. Justified, to some extent.

THen it would be justified for Israel to exterminate the Arab population on Israeli territory, I suppose? At least to some extent?

The ones that have moved there since 1947, yes, to some extent.

And the Hispanics in the US as well? And I've noted there is a big Korean family on the first floor of my apartement building. They seem to have come here since 1947. Can I kill them or do you think I should get the police to do it?

[dead0man]

You should just randomly fire rockets at their front door.

[Bono]

I'm not going to support terrorism like Xahar, but there is a difference between those cases. The korean family bought that apartment, while the Israeli settlers just invaded and infringed on the arabs' property rights. I'd think two libertarians/classical liberals would be able to see the difference...

[BenNebbich]

If all Jews moved back inside the green line, do you think the attacks against Israel would stop?

that's a good point.

i think xahar is biased because of the fact that the neocons support israel so strongly.

they are doing right on this fact.

think about it:

remove all jews away from israel. put them to germany, poland or the us.

do you really think the hate of the political islam is gone then? i don't thinkso. they will just look for a new target. maybe christian minoritiesor whatever.

[Gustaf]

I'm not going to support terrorism like Xahar, but there is a difference between those cases. The korean family bought that apartment, while the Israeli settlers just invaded and infringed on the arabs' property rights. I'd think two libertarians/classical liberals would be able to see the difference...

I see your point, but I think the premises that would need to be true for it to work just aren't there. If there shouldn't be any koreans in Sweden they don't have a right to buy apartements either. From the Jewish perspective the Arabs did not have a right to the land because they usurped it to begin with. I can't say I'm all that familiar with the workings of the settlements but do they actually evict Arabs? Because I didn't think that they did.

[Bono]

I'm not going to support terrorism like Xahar, but there is a difference between those cases. The korean family bought that apartment, while the Israeli settlers just invaded and infringed on the arabs' property rights. I'd think two libertarians/classical liberals would be able to see the difference...

I see your point, but I think the premises that would need to be true for it to work just aren't there. If there shouldn't be any koreans in Sweden they don't have a right to buy apartements either. From the Jewish perspective the Arabs did not have a right to the land because they usurped it to begin with. I can't say I'm all that familiar with the workings of the settlements but do they actually evict Arabs? Because I didn't think that they did.

From the Native American perspective, the Americans don't have a right to their land because they usurped it to begin with You can't really go back further than a few generations in these matters, or else you're going to be juggling all sorts of force. as for not evicting Arabs, are you kidding? Where do you think the refugees in the neighboring countries came from?
I never claimed there shouldn't be any Jews in Israel, just they should not have used force in returning as if they already owned the place.

[Silent Hunter]

A lot (the vast majority IIRC) of the attacks against Israel are against targets inside the Green Line.

[Gustaf]

I'm not going to support terrorism like Xahar, but there is a difference between those cases. The korean family bought that apartment, while the Israeli settlers just invaded and infringed on the arabs' property rights. I'd think two libertarians/classical liberals would be able to see the difference...

I see your point, but I think the premises that would need to be true for it to work just aren't there. If there shouldn't be any koreans in Sweden they don't have a right to buy apartements either. From the Jewish perspective the Arabs did not have a right to the land because they usurped it to begin with. I can't say I'm all that familiar with the workings of the settlements but do they actually evict Arabs? Because I didn't think that they did.

From the Native American perspective, the Americans don't have a right to their land because they usurped it to begin with You can't really go back further than a few generations in these matters, or else you're going to be juggling all sorts of force. as for not evicting Arabs, are you kidding? Where do you think the refugees in the neighboring countries came from?
I never claimed there shouldn't be any Jews in Israel, just they should not have used force in returning as if they already owned the place.

Are we talking about Israel with 1967 borders now or something else? Because the refugees came into existence after the 1948 war when Israel was created. Most of them originated out of the Israel that was created then.

But my point was really that the Israelis moved in with the permission of the rulers of the land at the time. I don't think the vast majority of Jewish inhabitants in Israel got their land by stealing it. They moved there, a conflict arose. Once the Arabs refused to negotiate, refused to divy it up and took to arms I can't say it is as emotionally appealing to hear complaints about losing property. They tried to get it al for themselves and it didn't work. The fundamental point is that they don't want Jews. Whether the Jewish settlers on the West Bank took private property would make no difference to the level of violence. The idea that one can kill members of an enemy population simply for living in your country is the underlying principle of Xahar's reasoning (and would definitely apply to Arabs in Israel) and I find it to be...strange and a little disturbing.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Otherwise, if we continue in this way, Xahar said it, we could see apocalypse.

Hmm...? things aren't great, but they're better than a few years ago, surely?

Yes, but one important part of my way of life is trying to see where we go, what could be the future, and not what I want the future is. Because I think we have to envisage the more realist future as possible if we want to give us the more chances to can change it...

So, concerning this Israel/Palestine question, sure things are now better, but I don't believe in this "quiet" time.

To understand my views on this question for the future I would have to explain my global reflexion on it, I'll do it on this forum if I take time to, maybe one day. I've already spoken a little bit about it when I spoke about the "new life", the "rebirth" of old religions which is to me the biggest danger for the future, because this one is driving more and more people to stop thinking, and to abandon their mind in fully irrational beliefs, in fully emotional reactions, in "God" justifications for political choices...

If all Jews moved back inside the green line, do you think the attacks against Israel would stop?

that's a good point.

i think xahar is biased because of the fact that the neocons support israel so strongly.

they are doing right on this fact.

Why are they doing right on it?

think about it:

remove all jews away from israel. put them to germany, poland or the us.

do you really think the hate of the political islam is gone then? i don't thinkso. they will just look for a new target. maybe christian minoritiesor whatever.

Here, it is not spoken about political Islam, just Israel/Palestine question and no one said that ruling this question will rule the problem of the radicalism of political Islam.

Christians are already targeted in Muslim countries, more or less according to the different countries.

But my point was really that the Israelis moved in with the permission of the rulers of the land at the time. I don't think the vast majority of Jewish inhabitants in Israel got their land by stealing it. They moved there, a conflict arose. Once the Arabs refused to negotiate, refused to divy it up and took to arms I can't say it is as emotionally appealing to hear complaints about losing property. They tried to get it al for themselves and it didn't work. The fundamental point is that they don't want Jews. Whether the Jewish settlers on the West Bank took private property would make no difference to the level of violence. The idea that one can kill members of an enemy population simply for living in your country is the underlying principle of Xahar's reasoning (and would definitely apply to Arabs in Israel) and I find it to be...strange and a little disturbing.

The rulers of the land at the time...

Was UK representative of the Arabs and of their choices...?

Then, haven't Jewish imposed their views of what should be their new state?

Why Arabs had to accept negotiations? Had France to negotiate with Germany in 1940? What it officially did with Petain, but would you legitimate what has done Petain? Or would you legitimate "la résistance"? You know that Arabs refers to French resistance, where is the difference between these two terrorism? I just speak here about the occupation of France by Germany in early 40's, not about Holocaust. This also works for WW1, had France to negotiate when Germany occupied eastern part of France? Had they to give up the fight? I just ask.

Then, personally, as I said, I don't care about who would own the land, I would have liked a land for both peoples ruled by laws OK with the culture of both peoples (I know that reality seems to not be really OK with this) but, euh...please...someone... tell me, if we admit that Israel had right to create a land by force, why shouldn't Arabs be not OK with it and why wouldn't they be allowed to express it by force...?

Force has been legitimated for Israel, why would it be forbidden for Arabs?

[Kaine for Senate '18]

BUMP