British Teens the Worst Behaved in Europe

[Bono]

www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20697445-2703,00.html

Britain's Lord of the Flies generation
Peter Wilson, Europe correspondent
November 04, 2006
BRITISH teenagers are the worst-behaved in Europe and young Australians share many of their anti-social characteristics, according to a major study of youth behaviour.

On every indicator of problem behaviour ranging from drug and alcohol abuse to crime, sexual disease and self-harm, young Britons are at or near the bottom of the European table, according to analysis by one of Britain's most influential think tanks, the Institute for Public Policy Research.

Julia Margo, a research fellow at the centre-left institute, said the study of dozens of research projects on teenage behaviour had been mainly focused on British teens but it had also found that Australian youths "were not that different" to teenagers in Britain, where politicians and community leaders have become increasingly worried about the rise of antisocial behaviour among the young.

"Australians crop up a lot at the bottom end of the spectrum of youth behaviour and the similarities with Britain are probably because there are a lot of cultural and social similarities," she said.

In both countries there was not enough interaction between adults and teenagers, so teenagers were left to learn their social skills from each other, a child-raising system that had more in common with William Golding's novel Lord of the Flies than with a properly functioning society, Ms Margo said.

The research showed that British teens were the least likely in Europe to share meals with their parents and the most likely to spend a lot of time hanging out with friends.

Without the strong focus on family and church that is found in southern Europe, or the Scandinavian preference for a large welfare state and a strong sense of civic duty, British teenagers spent less time with adults.

The Conservative Party said yesterday the problems in British youth culture had reached the point where non-custodial penalties called anti-social behaviour orders - or "asbos" - which are imposed for vandalism and other low-level crime, had become a badge of honour for many teenagers.

Asbos were introduced by the Blair Government in 1999 to battle what much of the British public sees as an epidemic of public disorder, often involving "hoodies" - youths wearing hooded jackets.

A group of 16-year-olds on the Highgrove public housing estate in north London agreed yesterday that youth behaviour in Britain was deteriorating and thatmany teenagers saw an asbo as something of a status symbol.

Even while Marcus, the most articulate member of the group, insisted to The Weekend Australian that "an asbo is nothing to be proud of", his friend Andrew kept interrupting to boast that he had had one of the social orders imposed on him and he was breaching it by visiting the estate. While Andrew proudly prattled on in gangsta slang resembling the diction of comedy character Ali G, his friends said the IPPR's conclusions about the parlous state of British youth culture seemed right to them.

"People get stabbed every day and it is people our age who get stabbed," said Marcus, who was standing about 5m from where a young man was stabbed to death a month ago.

"You don't hear about it happening that much in other countries. It (the problem) is not about drugs and unemployment, it's about gangs and people hanging together to feel safe."

Youth unemployment and child poverty are commonly blamed as causes of problem behaviour, but both have fallen dramatically in Britain under the Blair Government.

According to Ms Margo, those improvements have been outweighed by an increasing gap in social skills between those youths who spend a lot of time with adults or in structured sport and leisure activities, and youths who spend their free time hanging about with friends.

"In a less regulated, more service-oriented economy, social skills end up being more important than ever, so if you come from a family background that has already taught you how to interact with people you will get great opportunities, but society as a whole has gotten worse at giving people those skills so it is getting worse for kids who are disadvantaged in that way," she said. "That means we should be supporting the family types that need help the most, like single parents."

Ms Margo said adults in Britain and Australia tended to have a "pub and bar" culture that meant spending much of their leisure time with other adults, whereas countries such as France, Italy and Spain found it more comfortable to have different age groups socialising together -- at least in the same areas.

"Our solution is just to build youth centres where teenagers can hang around with each other doing nothing and learning their social norms in a Lord of the Flies syndrome," she said.

The research found that only 34 per cent of Britons said they would intervene if they saw a group of 14-year-olds vandalising a bus stop, compared with 65 per cent of Germans, 52 per cent of Spanish and 50 per cent of Italians.

[Bono]

The Continental model, of course, encourages a sense that these youth 'belong' in society by giving them a minor political voice, through real center-left parties, and a higher degree of economic equality and hope for future improvement.

As proven by the peaceful behaviour of french youth.

[Bono]

No one has mentioned the erosion of religion, but I will point this out as a great cause of these troubles.

[Bono]

No one has mentioned the erosion of religion, but I will point this out as a great cause of these troubles.

The dates don't fit. The final decline of orthodox religion here was, more or less, complete by the late 1970's (and probably a little earlier). Binge drinking started to boom (if that's the correct word) from the mid 1980's or so.

Besides, Anglicanism has never had any problems with alcoholism... at the height of alcohol abuse in Britain (18th and early 19th centuries. You think we're bad today? Jesus...), England was far more Anglican in it's culture and so on than it is today.
Nonconformity did (and does) have it's issues with alcohol, but it's great decline (as an organised force) was in the early half of the twentieth century.

FInal being the keyword. THat means there was strong antecedents. Thus By the mid 80s, the first fruits of the godless generation were entering teenage years and starting to drink.
The United Kingdom needs a new Great Awakening.

[Bono]

I find the influence of organized religion on society to be negative so I disagree. Its a shame the brits settled the US with a population prone to great awakenings(the puritans).

I find your influence on society to be negative. Maybe we should send you to a concentration camp.

[Bono]

FInal being the keyword. THat means there was strong antecedents. Thus By the mid 80s, the first fruits of the godless generation were entering teenage years and starting to drink.
The United Kingdom needs a new Great Awakening.

The Great Awakening was the decline of the influence of religion.

Which great awakening are you refering to?

[Bono]

FInal being the keyword. THat means there was strong antecedents. Thus By the mid 80s, the first fruits of the godless generation were entering teenage years and starting to drink.
The United Kingdom needs a new Great Awakening.

The Great Awakening was the decline of the influence of religion.

Which great awakening are you refering to?

The post-war era and the liberalisation of society

The fourth great awakening is a myth.

[Bono]

Bono your recent rise in religiousness is worrying. Have you now completely left individualism? Do you no longer believe in the individual as the basis of society? Have you become nothing more than another man of great religion who believes that if we just all hunkered down with our families and went to church every Sunday we would be a-okay?

I don't know how religion equals colectivism. maybe you're too stuck in your romanist conception of religion.
I do think that with the lawlessness of this generation, Britain is reaping what it has sown for turning its back on the Lord.
My political positions remain the same.

[Bono]

I do think that with the lawlessness of this generation, Britain is reaping what it has sown for turning its back on the Lord.

So what do you want us to do about it jmf...Bono? What laws would you wish to see overturned?

What laws. This isn't a problem for the state--however, it would help to get rid of the ridiculous restrictions on bars hours.
That is an issue for preachers, and in that field, the church of England and the church of Scotland are complete failures. Of course, this may be due to the fact that they are more NGOs than churches, and are more concered about "helping the world" than in saving souls.

[Bono]

I do think that with the lawlessness of this generation, Britain is reaping what it has sown for turning its back on the Lord.

So what do you want us to do about it jmf...Bono? What laws would you wish to see overturned?

What laws. This isn't a problem for the state--however, it would help to get rid of the ridiculous restrictions on bars hours.
That is an issue for preachers, and in that field, the church of England and the church of Scotland are complete failures. Of course, this may be due to the fact that they are more NGOs than churches, and are more concered about "helping the world" than in saving souls.

The Moderator of the CofS is going to push for gay marriage recognition within the kirk according to reports today while we're on the subject.

Of course some genuinely don't pre occupy themselves with 'saving souls' because they believe in predestination so are concerned with the welbeing of people while on earth (which also results in them not becoming heartless b-stards)

I believe in presdestination. THat doesn't matter. We're still comanded to preach the gospel so that we can be instruments of the Spirit.
You remind me of that hyper Calvinist, that when faced with a young man eager to go preach the gospel replied: "Sit down your man. When God decides to save the heathen, He will do it without your help."
Not that any of those churches preaches (normal) Calvinism anymore anyways(I'm sure there are some exceptions).
Anyways, both those churches have become so engrossed with liberal "theology" that they obviously don't care abut saving souls because they believe every religion provides a path to God or some other such nonsense. The CoE doesn't even require pastors to affirm the 39 Articles anymore. The fact is, that while charitable work is important, it is secondary to ministering to the faithful and fulfilling the Great Comission. That is where they have been a complete failure.

[Bono]

Bono your recent rise in religiousness is worrying. Have you now completely left individualism? Do you no longer believe in the individual as the basis of society? Have you become nothing more than another man of great religion who believes that if we just all hunkered down with our families and went to church every Sunday we would be a-okay?

I don't know how religion equals colectivism. maybe you're too stuck in your romanist conception of religion.
I do think that with the lawlessness of this generation, Britain is reaping what it has sown for turning its back on the Lord.
My political positions remain the same.

I have never encountered a fundamentalist religion that is individualistic. Yes some "religions" like Unitarian Universalism are individualist but really that are neither very religious nor very Christian. Christianity is a communal and collectivist enterprise.[/quore]
Free association!
As long as no one mandates colectivization at state level...
Seriously, you're sounding like some randroid who oposes any sort of collective association, even if it is free.

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You have it backwards. I first attain my beliefs, then look for a church that agrees with me doctrinally.

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Obviously the reprobate can still have a measure of respect for God as sovereign creator(though not as Lord and Saviour), especially if they are part of the visible church.

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What goodness of the individual? I always believed that people were fundamentally bad, and that only strenghtens my libertarianism. Anyways, you're one to talk, given that you've been becoming a total socialist lately.

[Bono]

I can't see how philosophically seeing people as fundementally 'bad' can strengthen your libertarianism. Classic liberalism has always embraced the individual as being the 'greatest good' who is only corrupted when 'collectivised' either into the family unit, the community, the state or organised religion.

If you believe people are fundamentally bad then how one earth can you allow them the ability of free choice if they are therefore inclined to make 'bad' choices?

I think you are mixing two things. One thing is the bellief that the individual and tis rights should be above "collective rights"(that don't exist anyways). ANother completely different thing is the view of the nature of human nature--pardon the redundancy.
Anyways, what you are arguing is the Hobbesian argument. It falls by the base when you consider that the government is constituted of the very same people that are fundamentally bad, and that by being in the government they gain a monopoly of force on you.

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I don't "allow" others? But I never expressed here any desire for a state church anyways--not that England doesn't have one to begin with, even if it's barely a church anymore. I don'0t get what's wrong with "berating" people. I am a paleolibertarian, thus I am a cultural conservative and defend that certain behaviours should happen in socoiety, even if I do not defend the use of covernment cohercion to mandate them. If we take that "berate" thing to its logical conclusion, we wouldn't be able to preach Christianity, because we could be offending people.
Oops, my bad, I forget that that already happens in the UK.

I am simply criticizing the churches for not doing what is their job, the reason they were instituted by Christ on earth, and offering a solution that implies no amount whatsoever of cohercion.

[Bono]

But if yourself, your brother and Bono have chosen to attend churches or adhere to faiths that suit your own views, don't decry those who choose to attend liberal churches or indeed none at all if it suits their views or their perceived wellbeing.

If people have collectively chosen to distance themselves from orthodoxy or religion completely then that is their choice,

In a free society, I can criticize everything  and anyone I want.
Oh, btw, as for caring for society, since the UK denies its subjects the right to defend themselves, obviously people have to worry about lawless thugs roaming the streets.

[Bono]

I am a paleolibertarian, thus I am a cultural conservative and defend that certain behaviours should happen in socoiety, even if I do not defend the use of covernment cohercion to mandate them.

I don't see why you linked to that Christian Voice group who are to such an extreme that even evangelicals dissociate themselves from them (partly due to their harrasment of Catholics leaving mass)...

It could even have been scientologists. They were doing a peaceful handing of flyers, exercising their freedom of expression and religion, and some jackbooted thug infringed on it. I doubt they would have done the same if it was a group of communists handing flyers about the extermination of the "bourgouise".

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Okay, how about the very topic of this article.
Each friday and saturday night, the streets of british cities become reministcent of France during the muslim riot--and that the british government persists in denying its citizens the most basic right to self-defense. British teens are the earliest in europe to have sexual intercourse, and to drink heavily. Britain has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in europe, and a very heavy alcoholism rate. Society is hostile to religion, and the church leaders don't care and go along with it. The welfare state is just a symptom of the problem.

[Bono]

Okay, how about the very topic of this article.
Each friday and saturday night, the streets of british cities become reministcent of France during the muslim riots. British teens are the earliest in europe to have sexual intercourse, and to drink heavily. Britain has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in europe, and a very heavy alcoholism rate. Society is hostile to religion, and the church leaders don't care and go along with it. The welfare state is just a symptom of the problem.

Then do you not agree that in order to solve this 'sexual' crisis we should lower the age of consent to 14 or 15, offer full and uncensorced sex ed to every child in state schools (including faith schools where, in Scotland from experience, they are not required to teach sex ed at all). If we combine this with the recent axing of VAT on condoms and the repeal of Section 28 to allow schools to teach about homosexual relationships (and encouraging gays to practice safe sex) and the introduction of civil partnerships to allow monogamous gay couples to have legal recognition (1000 couples and counting in Scotland alone) In short to pull down all barriers to consensual sex amongst similar aged teenagers and allow people to regulate their own sex lives?

Oh my God. no, I don't support any of that, since I don't believe in positive rights. Especially not forcing religious schools to teach sex ed, that's just totalitarian. Except lowering the age of consent, of course, but then again, I don't see how that has been stopping anyone.  THat doesn't adress any of the other things, anyways.

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But at least it was socially censored.

[Bono]

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But at least it was socially censored.

You mean behind closed doors?

Would it benefit society for me to marry a woman and have a few kids to 'keep up appearances' and then sleep with my boyfriend on the side?

Er, no. I am not endorsing the past situation, just saying that it was marginally better than the present.

EDIT: Actually, refering to the sexual thing, I retract. They are equally as bad.
However, the lawless youth was never this lawless.

[Bono]

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But at least it was socially censored.

You mean behind closed doors?

Would it benefit society for me to marry a woman and have a few kids to 'keep up appearances' and then sleep with my boyfriend on the side?

Er, no. I am not endorsing the past situation, just saying that it was marginally better than the present.

What present situation? My own?

I meant society, but check my edit.

[Bono]

I meant society, but check my edit.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'equally as bad' what is equally as bad?

But why should you be concerned with society? Should you not be concerned with the individual? Who else can regulate their behaviour but themselves. I choose to be have been with my partner in a monogamous relationship for the past 18 months, my friend chooses to take home a different man every night. I don't approve of it, but it's his decision.

As for the present, let's take crime. Crimes against the person, gang related criminality etc is actually lower if we use raw data in the inner cities now than it was in the 1950's (In Glasgow in particular) If we were to compare it to the Victorian era you'd think we were living in a utopia.

It's lower in those places, but it's more widespread. Anyways, comparing it to the victorian era is a bogus comparison, I could as well compare it to puritan new england and say it was hell.
As for concern with the individual, NO. NO NO NO!
I can be a libertarian and be concerned with society all I want, I just can't want to use the state to use cohercion to restrict private activity. I don't have to respect people who do things I find repulsive, like binge drinking. I may respect a few individual people who do so, but I don't in general.

[Bono]

I don't have to respect people who do things I find repulsive, like binge drinking. I may respect a few individual people who do so, but I don't in general.

And neither do I But I believe we should relax restrictions on alcohol and encourage responsible drinking, and yes even amongst young teenagers should be encouraged to drink responsibly at mealtimes at their parents discretion. Tighter restrictions would have the opposite affect. The only way to enourage this is to roll back the state and roll forward personal responsibility. Indeed 'glassing'; attacks from broken glasses inside and outside bars in Glasgow was 'slashed' by introducing plastic glasses (except for wine)

Aside for that, what did you mean was 'equally as bad' I've read over it but need clarification in order to repond to that point (which was why I veered off into crime!)

Well, I at first I was saying that people pretending but go having illicit sex  hddenly was better than the current situation, but I changed my mind and I say the state it was then and the state it is now are both bad.

[Bono]

Well, I at first I was saying that people pretending but go having illicit sex  hddenly was better than the current situation, but I changed my mind and I say the state it was then and the state it is now are both bad.

So in my scenario, having a long term relationship with another man is as bad as marrying a woman and having illicit sex with a man behind her (and presumably the childrens) back ?

In other words open and honest monogamy (but with another man), in this situation, is comparable to hiding my sexual orientation and cheating?

EDIT: If so, and correct me if I am wrong, if monogamy in this case counts for nothing, why should someone who is gay be encouraged to be monogamous at all?

When did sexual orientation come to the topic?
I don't recall mentioning it, and I sure don't think sexual orientation is behind the sorry state of british youth.