Did Thomas Mann support genocide against his own countrymen?

[AtorBoltox]

Consider the following quote from the acclaimed German novelist Thomas Mann after the bombing of his own hometown of Lübeck -  “I think of Coventry and I have no objection to the lesson that everything must be paid for. Did Germany believe that she would never have to pay for the atrocities that her leap into barbarism seemed to allow”?

While it's a little different, this quote reminds me a lot of Vosem's remarks that Gazans should support the Israeli military campaign against Hamas, something which we were all told was absolutely horrific and calling for genocide. But this quote is saying pretty much the same thing - that Germans should support the allied bombing of their own country. If Atlas was around in 1944, would Thomas Mann have been muted for these comments?

Edit - I'm including this quote from Friedrich Kellner that is substantially stronger than what Mann said.
'There is no punishment that would be hard enough to be applied to these Nazi beasts. Of course, in the case of retribution the innocent will have to suffer along with them. Ninety-nine percent of the German people, directly or indirectly, carry the guilt for the present situation. Therefore we can only say this: Those who travel together, hang together.' Nothing Vosem said even approaches the severity of '99% of Germans bear guilt for the present situation.' If Vosem is genocidal, than Kellner axiomatically must be auto-genocidal.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Holy False Equivalency batman!

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

No

[AtorBoltox]

Holy False Equivalency batman!

How? They’re both essentially saying that the people being bombed should support the people bombing them. The only difference is that Mann is a member of the group being bombed himself

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Holy False Equivalency batman!

How? They’re both essentially saying that the people being bombed should support the people bombing them. The only difference is that Mann is a really from the group being bombed himself

I don't see Mann salivating in a creepily fanatical way about how all Germans should be glad they're being bombed. Did you read the same posts as the rest of us did? I'd like to go back to before this godforsaken war broke everyone's brains, please.

[Battista Minola 1616]

Thomas Mann wrote that from Los Angeles, which makes it kind of incommensurable with the thoughts of someone in Gaza. Incidentally, yesterday I happened to visit again my city's largest WW2 bunker turned museum of sorts, which includes a sound reevocation of an Allied bombing. Unfortunately the info panels do not include opinion polls of the local population in 1943.

[AtorBoltox]

Thomas Mann wrote that from Los Angeles, which makes it kind of incommensurable with the thoughts of someone in Gaza. Incidentally, yesterday I happened to visit again my city's largest WW2 bunker turned museum of sorts, which includes a sound reevocation of an Allied bombing. Unfortunately the info panels do not include opinion polls of the local population in 1943.

This would a good rebuttal if my point had been 'polling says Gazans support the bombing.' Unfortunately it actually was that thinking they should is not some horrific incitement to genocide

[Battista Minola 1616]

Thomas Mann wrote that from Los Angeles, which makes it kind of incommensurable with the thoughts of someone in Gaza. Incidentally, yesterday I happened to visit again my city's largest WW2 bunker turned museum of sorts, which includes a sound reevocation of an Allied bombing. Unfortunately the info panels do not include opinion polls of the local population in 1943.

This would a good rebuttal if my point had been 'polling says Gazans support the bombing.' Unfortunately it actually was that thinking they should is not some horrific incitement to genocide

If that's all your point you may as well have picked a quote from a non-German.

[lfromnj]

[/At the height of their insane power, the German people cannot be brought to reason with words. Only a tremendous force and the commitment of all war material can bring the wild steer to its senses.

Mann isn’t a great example for this. Friedrich kellner is better imo.

There is no punishment that would be hard enough to be applied to these Nazi beasts. Of course, in the case of retribution the innocent will have to suffer along with them. Ninety-nine percent of the German people, directly or indirectly, carry the guilt for the present situation. Therefore we can only say this: Those who travel together, hang together.

He was actually living in Germany and documented all the rumors and events he witnessed. Its pretty clear he actively did wish for the bombing of Germany.

[AtorBoltox]

Holy False Equivalency batman!

How? They’re both essentially saying that the people being bombed should support the people bombing them. The only difference is that Mann is a really from the group being bombed himself

I don't see Mann salivating in a creepily fanatical way about how all Germans should be glad they're being bombed. Did you read the same posts as the rest of us did? I'd like to go back to before this godforsaken war broke everyone's brains, please.

Have you seen the Friedrich Kellner Ifromnj shared above? That language is a lot stronger than what Vosem said. Was Friedrich Kellner genocidal to his own people?

[YE]

Keep this thread on topic please.

[lfromnj]

Keep this thread on topic please.

I noticed you edited my post? What was changed, I don't recognize anything being changed.

[YE]

Keep this thread on topic please.

I noticed you edited my post? What was changed, I don't recognize anything being changed.

It's not a huge deal but you randomly mentioned Vosem past mutings in this thread. Did you have a brain fart and intended to say that elsewhere?

[lfromnj]

Keep this thread on topic please.

I noticed you edited my post? What was changed, I don't recognize anything being changed.

It's not a huge deal but you randomly mentioned Vosem past mutings in this thread. Did you have a brain fart and intended to say that elsewhere?

Forgot about the Vosem mention. Im pretty sure OP's thread was referencing Vosem's quotes earlier so not sure how its off topic. Im fine with it being edited if its too close to breaking forum rules about quoting moderatable posts.

[AtorBoltox]

With Vosems ban today, it seems that yes, the moderators do think that Thomas Mann and Friedrich Kellner were auto-genocidal

[wnwnwn]

Thomas Mann was an old school neomonarchic conservative before becoming a socdem antinazi. He seems to be the "make our country better, make us learn" type of selfcritical rebuilt back to roots semi-nationalist.
Also, he wrote "Death in Venice", so he had a fair share of weirdness...

[HisGrace]

Holy False Equivalency batman!

I mean yeah, we killed something like 40x the number of civilians in Germany that Israel has in Gaza and with far more indiscriminate tactics (carpet and firebombing entire civilian areas) yet Israel gets accused of genocide when no one says that about the WWII Allies.

[HisGrace]

I wouldn't say they should be glad it happened in either case, but the ultimate responsibility for both lies with Germany and Hamas for initiating the conflicts. Most Germans know that and if most Palestinians did we might have a chance at a peaceful solution.