The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

[Torie]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

[bullmoose88]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

Easy to see why they're fighting this so hard.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

     Public sector employees in San Francisco had a fit over a proposition that would have increased their contribution to their pension from 7.5% to 9% (& made MUNI drivers actually contribute something). I must say, they have nerve in spades.

[Sbane]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

It's actually not that bad at all,and I bet similar measures are being put forth in many different states. The problem isn't with that though, it's with the union busting portions of the bill. What does not requiring workers to pay union dues have to do with the budget?

[Sbane]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

Easy to see why they're fighting this so hard.

It's only become such a big deal due to the effort to take away collective bargaining rights. I bet cuts like this are happening in a lot of different places and there is not this much outrage. Cut benefits but don't take away people's rights. Pretty simple.

[Brittain33]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

Plus having their union busted and collective bargaining rights taken away, while nothing happens to police and fire. I have less of an issue with them pushing cost cuts than with the existential battle picked by Walker--which, again, I'm not going to say he was wrong as a Republican to fight on.

[bullmoose88]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

Easy to see why they're fighting this so hard.

It's only become such a big deal due to the effort to take away collective bargaining rights. I bet cuts like this are happening in a lot of different places and there is not this much outrage. Cut benefits but don't take away people's rights. Pretty simple.

I live in  a school district where there is a battle going on between the school board and teachers union over having the teachers pay more for their benefits.  The entry level salaries for teachers here is pretty decent, like 50 or 60k and I'd say most make at least 70k or more, and a significant portion are in the 90-100k range.  Its been pretty nasty.  The commonwealth hasn't done anything like Walker, and the teachers havent called in sick, but they're deliberately doing the minimum (not showing up to parent teacher nights, even stuff like not decorating the bulletin boards in the hallways etc).

I dont blame them for defending what they have, but when the economy sucks like it does, expecting the taxpayer to fund their salaries and their insurance/pension plans doesnt endear them to anyone.

[Sbane]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

Easy to see why they're fighting this so hard.

It's only become such a big deal due to the effort to take away collective bargaining rights. I bet cuts like this are happening in a lot of different places and there is not this much outrage. Cut benefits but don't take away people's rights. Pretty simple.

I live in  a school district where there is a battle going on between the school board and teachers union over having the teachers pay more for their benefits.  The entry level salaries for teachers here is pretty decent, like 50 or 60k and I'd say most make at least 70k or more, and a significant portion are in the 90-100k range.  Its been pretty nasty.  The commonwealth hasn't done anything like Walker, and the teachers havent called in sick, but they're deliberately doing the minimum (not showing up to parent teacher nights, even stuff like not decorating the bulletin boards in the hallways etc).

I dont blame them for defending what they have, but when the economy sucks like it does, expecting the taxpayer to fund their salaries and their insurance/pension plans doesnt endear them to anyone.

Oh, I am no fan of the teachers union at all. Not one bit. But the right thing to do is play hardball and make them contribute more to their pensions and healthcare (I am guessing salaries mostly are at market rates, but there can be distortions due to people who have been skating along for a long time without adding much value) but don't take away their collective bargaining rights. No one said the negotiations were going to be easy, but it needs to be done. And if teachers start doing the sorts of things you mentioned, just because they have to contribute a bit more, they will ultimately lose the PR war.

In Wisconsin Walker has overreached and basically re-ignited the entire union movement. A battle he should have won, he has managed to lose. He certainly has in my eyes, especially with the sweetheart deals for police and firefighters. Surely you agree that is wrong?

[opebo]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

Everyone in private industry should get that deal. It should be mandated for them by law.

[bullmoose88]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

Easy to see why they're fighting this so hard.

It's only become such a big deal due to the effort to take away collective bargaining rights. I bet cuts like this are happening in a lot of different places and there is not this much outrage. Cut benefits but don't take away people's rights. Pretty simple.

I live in  a school district where there is a battle going on between the school board and teachers union over having the teachers pay more for their benefits.  The entry level salaries for teachers here is pretty decent, like 50 or 60k and I'd say most make at least 70k or more, and a significant portion are in the 90-100k range.  Its been pretty nasty.  The commonwealth hasn't done anything like Walker, and the teachers havent called in sick, but they're deliberately doing the minimum (not showing up to parent teacher nights, even stuff like not decorating the bulletin boards in the hallways etc).

I dont blame them for defending what they have, but when the economy sucks like it does, expecting the taxpayer to fund their salaries and their insurance/pension plans doesnt endear them to anyone.

Oh, I am no fan of the teachers union at all. Not one bit. But the right thing to do is play hardball and make them contribute more to their pensions and healthcare (I am guessing salaries mostly are at market rates, but there can be distortions due to people who have been skating along for a long time without adding much value) but don't take away their collective bargaining rights. No one said the negotiations were going to be easy, but it needs to be done. And if teachers start doing the sorts of things you mentioned, just because they have to contribute a bit more, they will ultimately lose the PR war.

In Wisconsin Walker has overreached and basically re-ignited the entire union movement. A battle he should have won, he has managed to lose. He certainly has in my eyes, especially with the sweetheart deals for police and firefighters. Surely you agree that is wrong?

Oh the selective union busting here is the major thing that irks me.  Bust them all or bust none of them.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

Plus having their union busted and collective bargaining rights taken away, while nothing happens to police and fire. I have less of an issue with them pushing cost cuts than with the existential battle picked by Walker--which, again, I'm not going to say he was wrong as a Republican to fight on.

bingo. I'm no fan of public unions and the ridiculous pension system that they have but this protest isn't all about their salary cuts and changes to the benefits, it's about Walker essentially proposing to destroy the public unions. It's about Walker's absurd rhetoric against the unions. It's about the fact that Wisconsin doesn't even need to be making these cuts, if it wasn't for the GOP's tax breaks. It's about the general idea that less and less of the best and brightest will decide to become public workers because of the wage cuts and benefit reductions. Remember, teachers don't only become teachers out of altruism, they also do it to make a living. The same goes for all other public workers.

Anyways these are standard Republican tactics for crushing unions and the working class. Create a big deficit by reducing taxes, then later getting angry about the budget deficit and calling for cuts in services and public worker pay. It happened at the federal level with Reagan and Bush. It's happening at the state level across the country. It's happening at the local count level as well. Now of course Democrats have their own budget problems and in many ways are as awful at the Republicans as managing the budget but at least they aren't as intellectually dishonest as Republicans. At least they don't campaign on lies as often and actually propose reforms to change systems as opposed to just making cuts.

[opebo]

The idea that we only pay the salaries of public employees, but that those of private employees are no concern of ours or are not in any way borne by us is quite mind bogglingly illogical to me, quite frankly.

Why is it any concern of yours again as to what some private client of mine and I agree will be my billing rate?  Why is it any concern of yours, or the public, whether we agree on $250 an hour, or $500 an hour?  And why is it any concern of yours whether I make 200K per year, or 600K, if all paid by private clients?

Because they're not 'private' at all, Torie.  The public/private dichotomy is an utterly false one.   You are being paid many times what teachers are paid because they State mandates that you be paid more, and empowers your clients to be aristocrats controlling segments of the economy.  This is all absolute State control, its just masquerading as a 'market'.

[Torie]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

It's actually not that bad at all,and I bet similar measures are being put forth in many different states. The problem isn't with that though, it's with the union busting portions of the bill. What does not requiring workers to pay union dues have to do with the budget?

That part of the agenda is to 1) defund unions' campaign war chests, and 2) allow county and municipal executives to adjust public employee compensation and not be trapped by a contract. Walker was Milwaukee County executive, and to balance the books, he just had to fire people, rather than push their compensation down a bit closer to market. He didn't like that.

And yes, I think it is probably a dubious endeavor to do what he is doing. It would be better to just create a new world order when the contract ends, and then the teachers or whomever can do what they are doing now, call in sick, strike, get Obama involved, unleash the DNC, and so forth. This passion play needs to be gone through either way.

[Sbane]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

It's actually not that bad at all,and I bet similar measures are being put forth in many different states. The problem isn't with that though, it's with the union busting portions of the bill. What does not requiring workers to pay union dues have to do with the budget?

 It would be better to just create a new world order when the contract ends, and then the teachers or whomever can do what they are doing now, call in sick, strike, get Obama involved, unleash the DNC, and so forth. This passion play needs to be gone through either way.

This is what needs to be done. This is what should have been done when the contracts were negotiated in the first place. If this strike and protest was going on just because of increased contributions, they would lose. They might still lose of course, but Republicans just got hurt again amongst the working class. That was not necessary. You can argue Walker was indeed fighting for the working class, so they don't have to pay more and more for teacher's salaries, but by using these tactics he basically declared war on union guys everywhere and in every industry.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Democrats in the Wisconsin state legislature actually proposed a series of amendments to strike out the parts of the bill that would get rid of the parts of the bill that got rid of the right to collectively bargain and form unions. Republicans didn't budge. That's what makes this so different from say the Health Care bill or FinReg. Sure when those bills were proposed they looked like they were going to rape Republican interest groups and were totally against GOP philosophy. Yet the Democrats allowed their amendments to go forward. Many Democrats voted for their amendments. They compromised. Naturally the GOP still put forward all roadblocks against both bills because they're bastards.

The GOP isn't doing that. They just want to destroy a group that works on behalf of the working class. This has nothing to do with the budget or good public policy. That's why the state legislature is revolting and doing something that I consider to be morally dubious. But what the Republicans are doing is absolutely wrong and deceitful so I support them.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I agree with most of the guys here. Very few people would disagree with the reforms Torie mentioned. But the rest of Walker's bill and the exception of his political cronies from it are so odious that it's hard not to justify the public workers' outrage.

That part of the agenda is to 1) defund unions' campaign war chests,

And why should a union's war chest be defunded while private companies that bid for state contracts can spend freely to elect their buddies to positions of power?
If somebody wants clean elections and politicians that aren't beholden to special interests, he should bar both of them from raising and spending money for electoral reasons.

[Torie]

I agree with most of the guys here. Very few people would disagree with the reforms Torie mentioned. But the rest of Walker's bill and the exception of his political cronies from it are so odious that it's hard not to justify the public workers' outrage.

That part of the agenda is to 1) defund unions' campaign war chests,

And why should a union's war chest be defunded while private companies that bid for state contracts can spend freely to elect their buddies to positions of power?
If somebody wants clean elections and politicians that aren't beholden to special interests, he should bar both of them from raising and spending money for electoral reasons.

Partisan advantage. No, it can't be defended, just like exempting public safety employees cannot be defended. Not everything the GOP does is defensible. Who knew?

[Landslide Lyndon]

I agree with most of the guys here. Very few people would disagree with the reforms Torie mentioned. But the rest of Walker's bill and the exception of his political cronies from it are so odious that it's hard not to justify the public workers' outrage.

That part of the agenda is to 1) defund unions' campaign war chests,

And why should a union's war chest be defunded while private companies that bid for state contracts can spend freely to elect their buddies to positions of power?
If somebody wants clean elections and politicians that aren't beholden to special interests, he should bar both of them from raising and spending money for electoral reasons.

Partisan advantage. No, it can't be defended, just like exempting public safety employees cannot be defended. Not everything the GOP does is defensible. Who knew?

The problem is that people like you defend it. If krazen and wormy did it, nobody would bother.
But we've come to expect better than that from YOU.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

I agree with most of the guys here. Very few people would disagree with the reforms Torie mentioned. But the rest of Walker's bill and the exception of his political cronies from it are so odious that it's hard not to justify the public workers' outrage.

That part of the agenda is to 1) defund unions' campaign war chests,

And why should a union's war chest be defunded while private companies that bid for state contracts can spend freely to elect their buddies to positions of power?
If somebody wants clean elections and politicians that aren't beholden to special interests, he should bar both of them from raising and spending money for electoral reasons.

Partisan advantage. No, it can't be defended, just like exempting public safety employees cannot be defended. Not everything the GOP does is defensible. Who knew?

The problem is that people like you defend it. If krazen and wormy did it, nobody would bother.
But we've come to expect better than that from YOU.

Yeah Torie, I'm kind of disappointed in you. Your hatred of unions blinds you from the fact that this is a gross partisan powergrab that would cascade to other states if it was passed. For example my state wants to take away the collective bargaining rights of teachers now and replace teachers with laptops.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I'd also like to know if this is true:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wi_house_dems_warn_gov_walker_not_to_cross_packers.php?ref=fpb

...

The reason state workers are so outraged by Walker's actions, Kind said, is because they spent all last year negotiating and making $100 million in concessions with then-Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle only to have Republicans state legislators kill that bill then have a new governor come in and deny their negotiating rights.

"[Walker] didn't even come back and sit down with them," Kind told TPM. "Public employees are willing to contribute their pound of flesh. He wasn't even willing to talk to the teacher unions despite 17 separate requests from them for meetings with him."

(snip)

Granted, many here will disregard what Kind said because he is a Democrat. But if his assertions prove to be true then the case against Walker will be especially damning.

[krazen1211]

I'd also like to know if this is true:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wi_house_dems_warn_gov_walker_not_to_cross_packers.php?ref=fpb

...

The reason state workers are so outraged by Walker's actions, Kind said, is because they spent all last year negotiating and making $100 million in concessions with then-Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle only to have Republicans state legislators kill that bill then have a new governor come in and deny their negotiating rights.

"[Walker] didn't even come back and sit down with them," Kind told TPM. "Public employees are willing to contribute their pound of flesh. He wasn't even willing to talk to the teacher unions despite 17 separate requests from them for meetings with him."

(snip)

Granted, many here will disregard what Kind said because he is a Democrat. But if his assertions prove to be true then the case against Walker will be especially damning.

Nope, its your typical tripe.

Lame duck governor Doyle tried to ram through contracts in a lame duck Senate Session before the shellacked Democrats left office.

Unfortunately, 2 patriotic Senate Democrats gagged at the idea and the contracts were voted down. There was no Republican legislature until this year.

[krazen1211]

I'm sympathetic to this viewpoint. Here's the thing that gets me, though. You say this issue has nothing to do with the budget. Yet the outcome of this battle will surely impact the budget, not only in Wisconsin but in many other states, and not only this year but for many years to come. I mean, when does it become about the budget? We've been putting off the budget discussion for 10 years, which is why we're in this mess to begin with. In Washington, they're not seriously discussing it either. I demand to have the budget discussion. And since no one is giving it to me, I want to take it where-ever I can get it, including this union-busting bill. In other words, I'm not buying px75's bullsh**t. Even the Ezra Klein blog post makes no refutation of the $2 billion-$3 billion deficit claim. So the cuts have to come somewhere. Where do you think they should come?

Of course not. The idea is to lie and pretend that this action is about the last couple months of this year's budget, when its actually about the next 2 years worth of budgets and red ink.

Doyle unfortunately expanded government health care for the poor during his tenure and blew through any sort of cash balance he could get his hands on, such as the transportation and medical malpractice funds.

[Badger]

We call it "freedom." Maybe you've heard of it. It's what our Founders fought for.

The Founders believed in the 'freedom' to abuse collective bargaining to abuse the taxpayer?

Yes, and the collective bargaining has been so "abused" that they're going to essentially abolish it for public employees.

"Freedom".

BTW, your assessment of public sector employees and pensioners as "upper income" is idelogical and ignorant rather than pragmatic or remotely accurate. Grossly so actually.

[Badger]

So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS?  You make more than them and are not fired.

Mostly because there's no money to pay them.

Yes, God forbid we consider raising income taxes on the very highest 1% earners and estate of multi-millionaires to balance the budget rather than cutting the income of middle class teachers, police and state employees.

Please spare us trying to mask an ideologically based assault on collective bargaining as "fiscal responsibility".

[krazen1211]

Yes, and the collective bargaining has been so "abused" that they're going to essentially abolish it for public employees.

"Freedom".

BTW, your assessment of public sector employees and pensioners as "upper income" is idelogical and ignorant rather than pragmatic or remotely accurate. Grossly so actually.

Nothing new. Public sector workers are expressly excluded from the Wagner act, and other states have done so.

Wisconsin is just late to the party.


Edit: I might add, there are provisions in the law to allow unions to continue to plunder the taxpayer. They can get as much salary as they choose when it passes a referendum.

For some reason, leftists have a lot less faith in the people now......