Israel general discussion

[MaxQue]

The wedding news made news all around the world (I read it myself in Quebec news), so the government has to take the hardline position against them anyways.

[Hnv1]

Interesting things here:
JH merger with Tkuma will probably not last, Bennet and Ariel\Smoterich are not "clicking" at the moment at all
The Khanist were never a part of Gush Emunim or the national religious movement and here most of those arrested are sons of leading Rabbis and leaders of that sector, just to show are right wing the young settlers generation is.
Bennet, JH, and associated NGOs have been waging a facebook battle (in Israel facebook is where internet politics happen not twitter) against parts of their own electorate, the Jewish imagination had spread ridiculous rumors about the Shin Bet techniques, Bennet checked and found it's a pile of BS

[SATW]

I'll put in my two cents on Feiglin. I'm glad he's gone from the Knesset. As Famous Mortimer mentioned, his views aren't crazy but more of a ridiculous nature. Which is part of why I don't take him seriously. I also just think he comes off as an ass.

Yehuda Glick is much better and I would prefer him in.

Also, i agree w/ DavidB on Bibi. I love him, think he's been a good leader, but he needs to retire. He is no longer being productive and he's been in office too long. Whenever the next elections are, if he is still party leader, I will likely support The Jewish Home.

I'll likely support Barkat, if he runs, which won't be while Bibi is still leader, but my preferred and unrealistic choices would be Regev or Hotovely.


 

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Although Feiglin has taken this role of media boogeyman, his platform actually isn't that scary. It's more just ridiculous. He doesn't want to kill the Arabs, he just wants to pay them all to leave. Obviously that wouldn't work and it would never happen. It's so completely fantastical it's hardly worth getting upset over.

Nah, I dunno, IMO proposing that Israel be ethnically cleansed doesn't seem completely fantastical given the history of the area.

Will Bibi retire willingly, or will he try and stay forever until his health or scandal takes him?

[Hnv1]

I'll likely support Barkat, if he runs, which won't be while Bibi is still leader, but my preferred and unrealistic choices would be Regev or Hotovely.

Say what now? this the first I ever heard anyone saying he'd like to see her in charge, not even by her erhmm "electorate" ...are you having a laugh?

[danny]

Yeah it's hard to imagine Regev as PM. I suppose it would be pretty funny, but it's still a bad idea.

[SATW]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/205496#.Vn8Be_krLIV

Tel Aviv man arrested for threatening Bibi, other figures.

[DavidB.]

I'll likely support Barkat, if he runs, which won't be while Bibi is still leader, but my preferred and unrealistic choices would be Regev or Hotovely.  

Agree with this.

This has given Bennett a significant headache, because his party has the Justice Portfolio, and Justice Minister Shaked has been allowing the practice to continue, all the while the more radical Tekumah faction (Uri Ariel and Bezalel Smotrich) have been whinging. Bennett's definitively sided with Shaked though. I assume this is what's burst DavidB's bubble.

I'd been disappointed with Bennett for a while already, but Shaked's approval of torturing Jews is indeed very disturbing. Fortunately the Tekumah MPs are being more principled. I can't believe how Bennett is currently framing opposition to torture as opposition to the existence of the state and its institutions.

On Feiglin:

Well, there's the fact that he manages to seamlessly bind theocratic principles with hyperliberarian economics, more so than literally any other figure in Israel that I can think of.
I also get a vibe of genuine nastiness from him (and no I don't get this feeling from all or even most Israeli right-wingers, even those from the more... theocratic end).
I'm also pretty sure he's a closet Kahanist (didn't he work with them back in the day?)

He is actually not that theocratic at all, and I agree with Danny: to me he actually seems a truly likeable person.

[MalaspinaGold]

I'll likely support Barkat, if he runs, which won't be while Bibi is still leader, but my preferred and unrealistic choices would be Regev or Hotovely.  

Agree with this.

This has given Bennett a significant headache, because his party has the Justice Portfolio, and Justice Minister Shaked has been allowing the practice to continue, all the while the more radical Tekumah faction (Uri Ariel and Bezalel Smotrich) have been whinging. Bennett's definitively sided with Shaked though. I assume this is what's burst DavidB's bubble.

I'd been disappointed with Bennett for a while already, but Shaked's approval of torturing Jews is indeed very disturbing. Fortunately the Tekumah MPs are being more principled. I can't believe how Bennett is currently framing opposition to torture as opposition to the existence of the state and its institutions.

On Feiglin:

Well, there's the fact that he manages to seamlessly bind theocratic principles with hyperliberarian economics, more so than literally any other figure in Israel that I can think of.
I also get a vibe of genuine nastiness from him (and no I don't get this feeling from all or even most Israeli right-wingers, even those from the more... theocratic end).
I'm also pretty sure he's a closet Kahanist (didn't he work with them back in the day?)

He is actually not that theocratic at all, and I agree with Danny: to me he actually seems a truly likeable person.

a) Still no one has put up any evidence that torture actually took place.
b) By principled I assume you mean "we should only torture Palestinians".

[Hnv1]

Likud leadership primaries to be held in late Feb. Bibi is going to win and secure his leadership until 2023 (yes I know shocking).
MK Haim Katz was elected Party Convention Chairman, but Bibi pretty much drained that post out of power.
no word yet regarding Labour leadership primaries

[DavidB.]

a) Still no one has put up any evidence that torture actually took place.
b) By principled I assume you mean "we should only torture Palestinians".

a) One of the detainees lawyer's has released photos of his scarred wrist. Bennett, Shaked etc. also said that there had been no suicide attempt. I don't believe them anymore. I do think these kids were tortured.
b) I am my brother's keeper (even if I disapprove of the bad stuff he did), not the keeper of my evil cousin who wants to kill my brother and me.

[SATW]

a) Still no one has put up any evidence that torture actually took place.
b) By principled I assume you mean "we should only torture Palestinians".

a) One of the detainees lawyer's has released photos of his scarred wrist. Bennett, Shaked etc. also said that there had been no suicide attempt. I don't believe them anymore. I do think these kids were tortured.
b) I am my brother's keeper (even if I disapprove of the bad stuff he did), not the keeper of my evil cousin who wants to kill my brother and me.

I don't disagree with the concept, but when it comes to detaining people, I disagree. Being Jewish does not give anyone a free pass. If you want to have a conversation on whether or not these Jewish suspects were properly detained or not then thats a different conversation, but I frankly don't care either way.

let's not pretend like these people randomly got brought in. There is a reason they were brought in. Their personal histories are shoddy at best and they can provide answers ISA and Shabak needs.

I'm sure you'll disagree, DavidB, many of my friends and family have bitterly disagreed me.

[DavidB.]

I'm not saying these people were randomly brought in. I even believe at least some of them did something very bad (while some others didn't), and they should absolutely be punished harshly for that. But let the justice system take care of that, instead of detaining and torturing suspects in order to make them confess. The justice system should just make sure they have a good case. Even suspects have rights, you know. That is not just important for Meir Ettinger, it is important for every Israeli.

This isn't something weird to say; it is exactly how it works in the Netherlands and (afaik) in the US. Citizens have due process rights and even in Guantanamo's darkest days, US citizens have not been tortured.

A Jewish state should treat Jews in a Jewish way. That might include harsh sentencing after a fair process, but it does not include stripping away someone's rights and torturing them in order to make them confess.

(Apart from that, all the attention for this case diverts attention from the much more important fact that Arabs continue to attack Jews every. single. day. Time to move on.)

[SATW]

Fair point. It's a difficult situation, regardless of position. I agree w/ your last point, for sure. It's become a distraction.

[danny]

a) Still no one has put up any evidence that torture actually took place.

It doesn't seem necessary, no one is really denying that torture is taking place, at most there is a disagreement on how severe the torture is. The real debate is between those who are against the torture and those who support it.

[MalaspinaGold]

a) Still no one has put up any evidence that torture actually took place.

It doesn't seem necessary, no one is really denying that torture is taking place, at most there is a disagreement on how severe the torture is. The real debate is between those who are against the torture and those who support it.

Shin Bet has, and continues to vociferously deny torture took place.
http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/327965/israels-shin-bet-denies-torturing-duma-suspects/

@DavidB: you can have whatever opinion you want: what I object to is labeling it as principle, as in principled opposition to torture. That requires being against it for people you don't like also.

For reference:

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[danny]

a) Still no one has put up any evidence that torture actually took place.

It doesn't seem necessary, no one is really denying that torture is taking place, at most there is a disagreement on how severe the torture is. The real debate is between those who are against the torture and those who support it.

Shin Bet has, and continues to vociferously deny torture took place.
http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/327965/israels-shin-bet-denies-torturing-duma-suspects/

I read that response, and nowhere in it do they actually deny any torture, they just make vague claims of other people lying about something. This statement is entirely consistent with torture, if they wanted to deny torture they could have just done that.

[Hnv1]

A Jewish state should treat Jews in a Jewish way. That might include harsh sentencing after a fair process, but it does not include stripping away someone's rights and torturing them in order to make them confess.

What's a "Jewish" way? death penalty for fornicating with a married women, gay sex, or not respecting the sabbath as the Halcha requires?
 
A modern state should treat its citizens in a humane way.

I don't think they were tortured, they had a rough investigation which I opposed (as they were not an imminent threat) as I oppose most of those rough methods when they are conducted toward Palestinians. "Torture" is a strong word, you wanna see torture you should check American methods.

As to taking their attorneys word for it...I would rather believe The Sun.

[DavidB.]

@DavidB: you can have whatever opinion you want: what I object to is labeling it as principle, as in principled opposition to torture.

Nowhere did I talk about Tekuma members' "principled opposition" to torture in general...

What's a "Jewish" way? death penalty for fornicating with a married women, gay sex, or not respecting the sabbath as the Halcha requires?

Not really, since it's been a thousand years since rabbinical courts lastly sentenced someone to death.

I don't think they were tortured, they had a rough investigation which I opposed (as they were not an imminent threat) as I oppose most of those rough methods when they are conducted toward Palestinians. "Torture" is a strong word, you wanna see torture you should check American methods.

All semantics.

As to taking their attorneys word for it...I would rather believe The Sun.

Ben-Gvir is a troll, yes, but that doesn't mean he could never be right.

[Hnv1]

I never practiced human rights law here (private law is my domain), but I know the constitutional and legal framework and those claims are absurd.
A. The methods they claimed used aren't even used on Hamas men who are a "ticking bomb" hence I would doubt their use here (on Jews).
B. They do not appear to be a part of SB known repertoire which is suspicious.
C. Unlikely SB interrogators would use them considering the legal status of "torture investigations since SCoJ case 5100\94
D. I can't be considered a supporter of friend of Bennet or Religious Zionism, but he looked into it and found most of those claims to be bogus

[Hnv1]

First post-election poll I'm seeing today at Yediot. Take with a kg of salt and also calculate a integral bias toward Lapid and against Bibi

Likud - 25
ZU - 18
YA - 18
JAL - 13
JH - 12
YB - 8
UTJ - 7
Kulanu - 7
Shas - 6
Meretz - 6

With Gideon Saar joining Kulanu:
Likud - 21
ZU - 18
YA - 18
JAL - 13
Kulanu - 12
JH - 11
YB - 8
UTJ - 7
Shas - 6
Meretz - 6

[SATW]

First post of 2016

Going off Hnv1's post, there were rumors of Sa'ar making his own party too? http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/205227#.Vob3JPkrLIU (or am I missing an update on this?)


Also, prayers to Tel Aviv and BDE to the confirmed deceased victims, Alon and Shimon.

And Shabbat Shalom to everyone.

[DavidB.]

Thought I'd post a poll. January 1, conducted by Panels for Maariv and the Jerusalem Post.

What is the country's biggest problem?
45% The current wave of terror
33% Cost of living + socio-economic inequality
8% Diplomatic stalemate
4% Right-left relations
4% International isolation
2% Religious-secular relations

4% DK

Could a diplomatic agreement currently be reached with the Palestinians?
68% No
22% Yes

10% DK

What is currently the biggest danger to Israeli security?
47% Palestinian violence
24% Islamic State & radical Islam
13% Iran
7% Jewish terrorism
6% Hezbollah

3% DK

Do you believe the current wave of terrorism can be stopped?
65% Yes
28% No

7% DK

Will Iran keep its Iran deal commitments?
79% No
6% Yes

15% DK


Will there be elections in 2016?
46% Probably not
27% Probably
9% Certainly not
5% Certainly

13% DK

As expected. Most Israelis theoretically support a two-state solution, but have become deeply distrusting of the Palestinians. Many still think the socio-economic disparities and the high costs of living are the biggest problem to society; the Likud-led governments haven't done much about that. There has been much focus on Jewish terrorism lately, but still only 7% think this is the main threat to Israeli society. Despite Bibi's focus on Iran, only 13% see Iran as Israel's biggest threat. At the same time, a majority are deeply distrusting of Iran's commitment to complying with the Iran deal, which also seems to indicate that most Israelis really don't trust Obama. Most people think there won't be elections in 2016: this ideologically more coherent government hasn't had much trouble yet. Bayit Yehudi seems very eager to stay within the government and toe Netanyahu's line, probably both because of policy-related benefits and because of Bennett's big wish to make the party a more mainstream and less radical (than before) alternative to Likud.

I found this article (watch out: longread) to be very worthwhile. Maybe I'll write some more about this tomorrow.

[Hnv1]

Kachlon his going to resign as MK so Akram Hasson could be made an MK. Akram Hasson is the head of Kadima btw and also ran in the JH primaries...so yeah Druze politicians at it again

Labour leadership run off will be at August. Shelly most likely competing, Herzog receiving quite a lot of fire in recent days for his break to the the right ('2 states not viable) with MK bar caught on tape mocking him

[Famous Mortimer]

Kachlon his going to resign as MK so Akram Hasson could be made an MK. Akram Hasson is the head of Kadima btw and also ran in the JH primaries...so yeah Druze politicians at it again

Labour leadership run off will be at August. Shelly most likely competing, Herzog receiving quite a lot of fire in recent days for his break to the the right ('2 states not viable) with MK bar caught on tape mocking him

Kachlon will remain a minister?

Also, when did Herzog say that? Why wasn't that bigger news?