Israel

[Хahar 🤔]

This is not the homeland of the Jews, they invaded, forced out and killed the native population:
see here.

After 3,000 years, it becomes our homeland.  And besides, G-d promised it to us.

That sort of reasoning will get you nowhere.

Besides, didn't YHWH promise Israel in exchange for a bunch of rules that almost no Jews actually follow?

[Хahar 🤔]

This is not the homeland of the Jews, they invaded, forced out and killed the native population:
see here.

After 3,000 years, it becomes our homeland.  And besides, G-d promised it to us.

That sort of reasoning will get you nowhere.

Besides, didn't YHWH promise Israel in exchange for a bunch of rules that almost no Jews actually follow?

Yeah

Then your argument is null and void. Unless, of course, you want to set up some Hasidic homeland.

[Хahar 🤔]

If you say that Jews don't deserve the land because they "invaded" it, then how do you explain the Arabs there. They invaded the region too. Why don't we just give the land back to the biblical Canaanites, the first people there? Wait, they don't exist! Israel has fought for that land and it is only half of the land that originally belonged to Jews in the bible. Israel is the only homeland for the Jews. Muslims have many countries for themselves. There are plenty of Christian majority countries as well. Israel does have many problems and they need to be fixed, but the Jews need a country of their own!

Yeah? After 3000 years, any land claims you have are meaningless. Or else Lebensraum would've made sense.

And I totally dispute that last sentence. Jews are doing very well for themselves in America and other Western countries.

[Хahar 🤔]

Odd, they did this last week on the 8th.  What's going on here?

Weird Jewish calendar thing?

[Хahar 🤔]

If you say that Jews don't deserve the land because they "invaded" it, then how do you explain the Arabs there. They invaded the region too. Why don't we just give the land back to the biblical Canaanites, the first people there? Wait, they don't exist! Israel has fought for that land and it is only half of the land that originally belonged to Jews in the bible. Israel is the only homeland for the Jews. Muslims have many countries for themselves. There are plenty of Christian majority countries as well. Israel does have many problems and they need to be fixed, but the Jews need a country of their own!

Yeah? After 3000 years, any land claims you have are meaningless. Or else Lebensraum would've made sense.

And I totally dispute that last sentence. Jews are doing very well for themselves in America and other Western countries.

Why don't Jews deserve a country? They were doing well in Germany for awhile, but then they got scapegoated. At least Muslims can leave if everyone starts to hate them, but without Israel, Jews would have nowhere to go.

Jews don't deserve a country if it's in a place where plenty of other people not to blame for the scapegoating live. And the idea of religiously based nation-states is largely passé.

[Хahar 🤔]

If you say that Jews don't deserve the land because they "invaded" it, then how do you explain the Arabs there. They invaded the region too. Why don't we just give the land back to the biblical Canaanites, the first people there? Wait, they don't exist! Israel has fought for that land and it is only half of the land that originally belonged to Jews in the bible. Israel is the only homeland for the Jews. Muslims have many countries for themselves. There are plenty of Christian majority countries as well. Israel does have many problems and they need to be fixed, but the Jews need a country of their own!

Yeah? After 3000 years, any land claims you have are meaningless. Or else Lebensraum would've made sense.

And I totally dispute that last sentence. Jews are doing very well for themselves in America and other Western countries.

Why don't Jews deserve a country? They were doing well in Germany for awhile, but then they got scapegoated. At least Muslims can leave if everyone starts to hate them, but without Israel, Jews would have nowhere to go.

so you think that if the U.S Government suddenly decided it wanted to commit genocide against Jews, they'd be safe in Israel?

No, but that is highly unlikely.

Exactly.

[Хahar 🤔]

If you say that Jews don't deserve the land because they "invaded" it, then how do you explain the Arabs there. They invaded the region too. Why don't we just give the land back to the biblical Canaanites, the first people there? Wait, they don't exist! Israel has fought for that land and it is only half of the land that originally belonged to Jews in the bible. Israel is the only homeland for the Jews. Muslims have many countries for themselves. There are plenty of Christian majority countries as well. Israel does have many problems and they need to be fixed, but the Jews need a country of their own!

Yeah? After 3000 years, any land claims you have are meaningless. Or else Lebensraum would've made sense.

And I totally dispute that last sentence. Jews are doing very well for themselves in America and other Western countries.

Why don't Jews deserve a country? They were doing well in Germany for awhile, but then they got scapegoated. At least Muslims can leave if everyone starts to hate them, but without Israel, Jews would have nowhere to go.

so you think that if the U.S Government suddenly decided it wanted to commit genocide against Jews, they'd be safe in Israel?

No, but that is highly unlikely.

Exactly.

I fail to see your point.

Unfortunate, isn't it?

[Хahar 🤔]

How dare they defend themselves!

If a bunch of Arabs claimed Illinois as their personal territory, they'd have no right to defend themselves.

[Хahar 🤔]

Yes, it might be relevant if Israel's military force was comparable to a rabbit and all of its neighbors comparable to wolves. Rather than the other way around being more accurate.

I suppose it makes more sense in the original war for independence, back in '48; its lost its relevance now.

then why bring it up now if you weren't trying to make a point?

I thought it had a point; turns out I was wrong.

Yeah, because the rabbit is owned by a guy with a gun.
Went to the mosque this morning, saw a nice little birthday party for Israel. Part of the parking lot was cordoned off with signs reading, "ISRAELI CHECKPOINT AHEAD: CAUTION". In that space, there were a bunch of Palestinian flags flying, along with a flag each from Jordan, Egypt, Pakistan and Morocco (I have no idea why the last two were there).

Not sure if this was at all relevant.

[Хahar 🤔]

Yes, it might be relevant if Israel's military force was comparable to a rabbit and all of its neighbors comparable to wolves. Rather than the other way around being more accurate.

I suppose it makes more sense in the original war for independence, back in '48; its lost its relevance now.

then why bring it up now if you weren't trying to make a point?

I thought it had a point; turns out I was wrong.

Yeah, because the rabbit is owned by a guy with a gun.
Went to the mosque this morning, saw a nice little birthday party for Israel. Part of the parking lot was cordoned off with signs reading, "ISRAELI CHECKPOINT AHEAD: CAUTION". In that space, there were a bunch of Palestinian flags flying, along with a flag each from Jordan, Egypt, Pakistan and Morocco (I have no idea why the last two were there).

Not sure if this was at all relevant.

It wasn't.

I'm sure it has some relevance. But it'd be much more relevant to, say, Britain.

[Хahar 🤔]

We sem to have many topics about Israel, so why not use the ready-made one?

Flame on.

[Хahar 🤔]

Also, I find it funny that both sides invoke God's promise as a justification for their ownership of Palestine. My leftist science teacher wondering when God because a real estate broker.

OMG SPC ACTUALLY MAKES A REALLY GOOD AND VALID POINT!

He would have if the second sentence had actually made any sense.

Who gives a about grammar?

I, the resident grammar Nazi of this forum, do.

[Хahar 🤔]

Yes, let's. This can be the receptacle for all Israeli topics.

[Хahar 🤔]

Someday, God willing Palestine will be free.

I'm all for a free Palestine, but not if it means eliminating Israel.  If Palestine had just taken what the UN gave them, they wouldn't be in this stateless situation.

They did. And Israel didn't like it. So Israel changed it.

[Хahar 🤔]

Demographics are going to crush Israel under the wheels of history. The only question will be how bloody will the transition from zionist settler herrenvolk democracy to secular democracy(best cast scenario) or islamist state(worse case scenario) be.

I've seen you mention how demographics will crush Israel, but I've never actually seen those stats.  Would you mind showing them to me?

The Palestinians will outnumber the Israelis in 20 years. I'll find a link for you.

[Хahar 🤔]

Arabs will outnumber Jews within the next 10 to 20 years, according to demographers.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C05EFDA173AF936A25754C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

[Хahar 🤔]

God gave that land to Abraham for the descendents of Israel back in Genesis, a book which foreshadows the rest of biblical history and prophecy.  As the following prophesy from Joel foretells, it is very unwise to attempt to undo the patterns set in Genesis:

Joel 2:30-3:2
30 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,  Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 “The sun will be turned into darkness  And the moon into blood  Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
32 “And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD  Will be delivered;  For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem  There will be those who escape,  As the LORD has said,  Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
1 “For behold, in those days and at that time,  When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all the nations  And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat.  Then I will enter into judgment with them there  On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,  Whom they have scattered among the nations;  And they have divided up My land."

Such is the justification that many would give for Israel's gobbling up all the land between the river and the sea. But it's certainly insufficient.

[Хahar 🤔]

Arabs will outnumber Jews within the next 10 to 20 years, according to demographers.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C05EFDA173AF936A25754C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Thanks; even though that article is 4 years old, and the information is probably even older.

So it's 5 to 15 years at this point.

[Хahar 🤔]

Do you know how Israel treats Jewish converts to Christianity?

Better than how Saudis treat Islam coverts to Judaism?

Answer: There aren't any.

Arabs will outnumber Jews within the next 10 to 20 years, according to demographers.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C05EFDA173AF936A25754C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

One man.  One vote.  One time.  It just takes one election to kill a democracy.

You know, Jordan is an Arab country and a functioning democracy.

[Хahar 🤔]

Do you know how Israel treats Jewish converts to Christianity?

Better than how Saudis treat Islam coverts to Judaism?

Answer: There aren't any.

Any guesses as to why?

Because Judaism doesn't encourage conversion.

[Хahar 🤔]

Arabs will outnumber Jews within the next 10 to 20 years, according to demographers.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C05EFDA173AF936A25754C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

One man.  One vote.  One time.  It just takes one election to kill a democracy.

And I doubt the Arabs will muster more voters than Jews in Israel.

That's their (the Arabs) goal.

It may be their goal, but I just don't see it happening; even if they do, I doubt they could form a Government.

What makes you say that? Like I said, look at Jordan.

[Хahar 🤔]

Rocket hits Israel, second violation of Gaza truce

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Israel doesn't have any room to whine about it.

[Хahar 🤔]

One of the curious things about this issue is the way it seems to cause otherwise reasonable people (or at least people who normally appear to be capable of being reasonable) to think and say things that they would, probably, find disgusting in just about any other context.

Quite right. Methinks it's because Israel is a quasi-religious subject (and religion does these sorts of things).

[Хahar 🤔]

Has Israel ever known true peace?

dude, they live around a bunch of Arabs

Before Muhammad and even Jesus, I mean....

The Arabs have been around since Ishmael...but Israel has know peace from time to time in the old testament, but they would always fall away from God and the result would be attack from another country.

So, they deserve what they're getting? Good to know.

[Хahar 🤔]

Rocket hits Israel, second violation of Gaza truce

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If there is one thing we've learned it's that this will never stop until all the Jews are gone.  If every Jew left every settlement in the West Bank would anybody be shocked if two days later rockets started flying out of there?  Would anybody be shocked if the anti-Zionists around here defended the rocket attacks?

Don't be ridiculous. Would anyone here be surprised if Israel attacked Iran tommorow and all of the Zionists here defended Israel?

I wouldn't be.