What if the Normans don't conquer Sicily? (user search)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 27, 2024, 10:26:39 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Discussion
  History
  Alternative History (Moderator: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee)
  What if the Normans don't conquer Sicily? (search mode)
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: What if the Normans don't conquer Sicily?  (Read 4609 times)
Verily
Cuivienen
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,663


Political Matrix
E: 1.81, S: -6.78

« on: May 28, 2007, 10:51:50 PM »
« edited: May 28, 2007, 10:55:28 PM by Verily »

Why would there not be a white man's country in the US? Are you presuming no successful reconquista?

The ramifications would be too far reaching to even talk about the colonization of North America. The odds of a nation resembling the US appearing are slim to none.

The biggest winners from the Normans not conquering Sicily would be the Byzantines. The Byzantine Empire retains its hold on southern Italy, and, even if they're defeated at Manzikert in 1071, Bari is still safe and secure, so the massive upheaval seen after the Double Disasters doesn't happen. The Byzantines refocus themselves as a trading nation in the central Mediterranean, meaning a weaker Venice, Genoa and Pisa, all of whom are unable to exploit a dying Byzantium to their advantage.

Meanwhile, the Normans still have to go somewhere. They might invade North Africa instead of Sicily and be defeated, but this would still weaken the Muslim emirates in the region. Though the Byzantines aren't suffering as badly as real history, they still ask for papal aid, and Urban II still siezes the excuse to seek power for himself. However, the first target of the crusaders is Muslim Sicily, a direct threat to the papacy in Rome.

The crusaders conquer Sicily, but at great cost. They do eventually reach the Levant but are defeated at Antioch and again at Acre and retreat to Cyprus, which is made into a crusader state. Sicily is re-Christianized and really not that different from real history.

From Cyprus, the crusaders essentially become pirates, weakening the Muslim states of the eastern Mediterranean and crippling trans-Mediterranean trade. The Ayyubids under Saladin decide to put an end to their privateering, but his fleet is destroyed by the crusaders while attacking Paphos. Saladin himself is killed and the Ayyubids fall apart.

I could go on, but I won't.
Logged
Verily
Cuivienen
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,663


Political Matrix
E: 1.81, S: -6.78

« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2007, 01:21:17 PM »

Why would there not be a white man's country in the US? Are you presuming no successful reconquista?
Without the crusades, I'm presuming European/Christian/Caucasian/whatever domination of the world to never happen.

To the contrary, European domination was pretty much ensured from the beginning due to geography. While East Asia, South Asia and the Middle East all have basically everything they might want in pre-modern society close at hand and therefore have little reason to launch amssive explorations and to conquer other parts of the world, both Europe's production capacity and production diversity are exceptionally low. This means that Europe had far more pressure to both explore and conquer than East Asia, South Asia or the Middle East.

I spent quite a bit of college researching the topic. My conclusion was that Europe's strength in the 16th and 17th centuries and dominance in the 18th and 19th centuries was due precisely to its inherent disadvantages, not advantages. Nowhere else had any compelling reason to establish world-spanning trade empires since they already had enormous production capacities and diverse native goods.
Logged
Pages: [1]  
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.026 seconds with 12 queries.