UK General Discussion: 2017 and onwards, Mayhem

[DavidB.]

I love Priti Patel so much now.

[DavidB.]

Some typical British upper-class antisemitism right here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/prince-charles-blames-jews-middle-east-turmoil-1986-letter-a8050586.html.

[DavidB.]

Oh, great. The Labour right is never going to accept Corbyn's legitimacy, is it? Thank God voters don't give a sh*t what these morons think.

People can accept Corbyn's "legitimacy" as a party leader while still criticizing the party line on a number of issues. Happened before Corbyn and it will happen when he's gone.

[DavidB.]

Labour's problem

Definitely Labour's problem

Yes, all parties in the UK have a problem with antisemitism, and antisemitism is probably more of a problem among the white British middle-class than among the white working-class (but of course it is much more of a problem in Muslim communities than in either of these two). British middle-class antisemitism has always struck me as particularly vile.

This former Tory MP has been stupid, presenting his friend with Nazi paraphernalia to be "edgy". That said, as far as I know, he never proposed any actual policies that would target Jews negatively and he was even a member of the Conservative Friends of Israel. Surely he was not a real danger to Jews. Meanwhile, Labour have a leader whose "problematic" views on Israel and, seemingly by extension, Jews are deeply interwoven in his ideology, and who can be expected to act upon this ideology once in power, endangering Jews in Israel and possibly in Britain as well: the example of Ilmar Reepalu, the Social Democratic mayor of Malmö who said Jews should move to Israel if they do not want to be the target of antisemitic violence, comes to mind.

[DavidB.]

Labour's problem

Definitely Labour's problem

Yes, all parties in the UK have a problem with antisemitism, and antisemitism is probably more of a problem among the white British middle-class than among the white working-class (but of course it is much more of a problem in Muslim communities than in either of these two). British middle-class antisemitism has always struck me as particularly vile.

This former Tory MP has been stupid, presenting his friend with Nazi paraphernalia to be "edgy". That said, as far as I know, he never proposed any actual policies that would target Jews negatively and he was even a member of the Conservative Friends of Israel. Surely he was not a real danger to Jews. Meanwhile, Labour have a leader whose "problematic" views on Israel and, seemingly by extension, Jews are deeply interwoven in his ideology, and who can be expected to act upon this ideology once in power, endangering Jews in Israel and possibly in Britain as well: the example of Ilmar Reepalu, the Social Democratic mayor of Malmö who said Jews should move to Israel if they do not want to be the target of antisemitic violence, comes to mind.

Second that, the most antisemitic party for me are the LibDem

Agreed.

[DavidB.]

stop being such a shonda dude.

Are you, of all people, saying this? Lmao.

[DavidB.]

The partition of Ireland, was a terrible mistake,
We paid the price in England for decades and we are still paying the price, more funding per head on Ulster then most towns and cities across England,
We are stuck with people that oppose Marriage equility, womans Right, and do not believe in our liberal values.
Most English people are sympathetic toward a united Ireland, it's Ulster-Scots that want to be part of our Country... 
But with demographic changes and Catholics becoming a majority it will happen...

part of 'your' country...The UK does not belong to English people. They are everybit as British as your white van Essex Man, one might even claim they are more than him.

If you aren't living in Britain you clearly aren't as British as the people actually living there, no matter how you identify.

This seems overly semantic, as the term British here clearly seems to indicate "UKish" rather than a geographical connection to the island of Great Britain. I fully agree with hnv1 here.

[DavidB.]

The partition of Ireland, was a terrible mistake,
We paid the price in England for decades and we are still paying the price, more funding per head on Ulster then most towns and cities across England,
We are stuck with people that oppose Marriage equility, womans Right, and do not believe in our liberal values.
Most English people are sympathetic toward a united Ireland, it's Ulster-Scots that want to be part of our Country... 
But with demographic changes and Catholics becoming a majority it will happen...

part of 'your' country...The UK does not belong to English people. They are everybit as British as your white van Essex Man, one might even claim they are more than him.

If you aren't living in Britain you clearly aren't as British as the people actually living there, no matter how you identify.

This seems overly semantic, as the term British here clearly seems to indicate "UKish" rather than a geographical connection to the island of Great Britain. I fully agree with hnv1 here.

The Ulster Protestant identity was developed in Ireland and is for better or worse (mostly the latter) an Irish identity, a particular Irish version of imagined Britishness that is now at odds with modern British identity and culture as practiced by actual Britons. Even Ian Paisley agreed that he was "an Irish man", a product of Ireland.

Whether an identity is "imagined" or not is not something I want to be the arbiter of. To me, the term British here seems to indicate a sense of connection and belonging to the UK. Whether or not their identity and culture is at odds with current inhabitants of the British island (which it probably is, and obviously Ulster protestant culture and identity are highly influenced by them being in Ireland) therefore does not seem overly relevant to me. And their ancestors come from the island of Britain anyway.

[DavidB.]

This government is criminally incompetent and reckless. First the disastrous Brexit negotiations, and now the risk that total madman Corbyn comes to power. Is there anything May has done that didn't turn into sh**t?

[DavidB.]

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Definitely the statement Corbyn wants to make right now… does the Labour leadership think "if you're stuck in a hole, keep digging" was intended as a recommendation? At this point it's as if they actively embrace where they've gotten and just don't care anymore.

[DavidB.]

I know you're against it or you used to be, but how recognizing Palestine is controversial?

It's common among social democratic parties to advocate for it, but it still definitely is "controversial", seeing as Sweden is the only Western European country whose government has recognized it...

This isn't actually a new policy; its an old Miliband-era policy that they've decided to talk about today for some reason.

I know. Still seems like doubling down on their insistence to not give a damn about Jews, given the current AS crisis. It wouldn't have mattered if Corbyn was not horrible on AS and spoke out about the legitimacy of Israel's existence. But these remaks weren not made in a vacuum.

[DavidB.]

Motion of no confidence defeated by 325-306.

[DavidB.]

Cringe @ "policies that are evidence-based, not led by ideology"

https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1097440644082077696

[DavidB.]

https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1098876982677434369

[DavidB.]

What is truly shocking though, is the way that May is behaving like this is purely an internal debate within the Conservative party, and that everyone else is entirely incidental to the process.

Isn't it Jeremy Corbyn who refuses to meet May on Brexit and not the other way around?

[DavidB.]

Ftr it was an honest question - I'm certainly not endorsing May's handling of Brexit...

[DavidB.]

Ugh. This is going to mean an extension of A50 and possibly a second referendum or a GE. May is betraying Brexit. It needs to be a no-deal now.

[DavidB.]

Dua Lipa would also show diversity. She's Albanian

May create new issues when Serbia enters the EU - a Kosovar backstop?

Dua Lipa would also show diversity. She's Albanian

Dua Lipa would probably do a better job at managing this trainwreck than any Tory clown would.

Low bar.

[DavidB.]

People didn't vote for a no-deal Brexit. The idea that the referendum would have succeeded if the plan was "let's just crash out" is laughable.

This deal, and Labour's initial proposal of staying in the customs union, are both reasonable options perfectly consonant with the mandate received from the voters in 2016.

I fully agree. But if that's not on the table anymore and the choice is between a no-deal Brexit or staying in the EU, it has to be the first option.

[DavidB.]

is there any reason some minor country (say, Lithuania) could not use the EU unanimity requirement to extort billions out of the UK? build us a new port or suffer brexit, etc

Western European countries are too economically connected to the UK, Eastern Europeans historically have a good relationship with the UK because of their mutual focus on free trade. But I've been thinking about this. If this does happen (and it definitely won't) it would be the Lega-M5S government in Italy, which doesn't care too much about the future of the EU and the geopolitical consequences of all this.