Young Muslim attitudes and the denial of the left in Britain (user search)
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  Young Muslim attitudes and the denial of the left in Britain (search mode)
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Author Topic: Young Muslim attitudes and the denial of the left in Britain  (Read 10928 times)
minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,206
India


« on: August 15, 2006, 03:26:41 AM »

It is clear, that from the opinions expressed by the young Muslims in the programme
Okay. Next. Anyone dumb or dishonest enough to make such a claim (that anything could even theoretically be "clear" from the choice of people someone put up before a tv camera) is not worth wasting my oxygene.
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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,206
India


« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2006, 07:14:35 AM »

It is clear, that from the opinions expressed by the young Muslims in the programme
Okay. Next. Anyone dumb or dishonest enough to make such a claim (that anything could even theoretically be "clear" from the choice of people someone put up before a tv camera) is not worth wasting my oxygene.


That's not justified Lewis and you know it. I am neither dumb nor being dishonest. Do you believe I am?
Did you write this text yourself? I wasn't aware of that. Change your rhetoric then. Tongue
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I have not seen it and cannot comment on this - just because a program is not blatantly sensationalist or attempts to be "balanced" does not mean it's unbiased though.
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Well, as I said. I stopped reading as soon as I hit on that blatantly stupid line.
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a) No, I did not. See above. Smiley
But what you're saying in the quoted-above part is not actually true. Or rather, it's based on a too narrow definiton of "faith" or "politicised religion". That secular, virulently anti-islamic, also anti-Christian fundamentalist creed of yours and Cubby's and some others' on the forum is just that, a political religion, and not a particularly likeable or peaceful one either. I'd like to call it neolaicism. (So is the positivism found in many of our most partisan Dems. So is libertarianism. So are my own most deeply-held views.)

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No, you can't. When you click on "start survey" it just links you back to where you came from. The text by Kenan Malik though (What Muslims Want), while not going nearly far enough should provide some food for thought.
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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,206
India


« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2006, 08:11:17 AM »

Message exceeded maximum post length...
Muslims may often say that we are willfully ignorant of their faith, culture and traditions, but it is increasingly apparent that they are ignorant of ours. It is unfortunate that they are not aware of the Reformation, the wars of religion, the renaissance and revolutions we have faced these past 500 years.
This much is quite true. (add "just as" or "almost as" before the second "ignorant", though.)
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And, what, exactly, do you think has been going on in the Muslim world these past 1400 years? Huh
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They were around for that. Tongue
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A self-picked religious figure head whose verdict you can ignore if you think he's wrong. Which kind of destroys the entire argument. Tongue If you're going by a relatively traditional definition, that is. (Mind you, there is a fatal paradoxon involved... the system really never worked well except in a weak state and in an area where several different schools of Islamic law had their followers.)
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Do they claim that? Was there a question - "Do you dislike elections?" "Do you dislike the fact that minorities have rights in Britain?" No? Thought so. Yes, and there were lots who said so? I stand corrected on that point then.

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Hear, hear!
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Some people do, more than you think maybe. As with most major migrations in world history (but there are exceptions) there is a comparatively minor but not insignificant stream back as well. Although "wanting to live under Shari'a law" is a major argument for only some of these.
What you should ask yourself maybe, though, is: If the vast majority of those who say that Shari'a law is somehow preferable to Western law (a position that is debateworthy [as long as we're not comparing the finest points of high Islamic justice with a lynching on the Western Texas frontier or vice versa] though I would find it quite clearly wrong.) have no intention of acting on this position ... how relevant is it really? I'm quite sure many if not most of them were just giving the orthodox Islamic answer out of a sense of solidarity, without really thinking it through.
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Oh, sure. Although, of course, "individualistic" and "immoral" apply to far vaster portions of the population than you make it sound like. But yeah, there definitely is a certain contempt for the easy west in Islamic communities that was actually born out of the first migrants' "wow, anything goes here! Cool!" impression. Indeed, it's a widespread stereotype among Turks and ex-Yugoslavs (of any religion) here, especially women, that "Germans have no honour". And using a specific definition of honour that exists there, this is true - but it's still a claim that I (and most Germans, most of whom have probably never heard it, would too) find offensive. We do have a sense of honour, it just takes a different form.

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Are you thinking of the failure to be integrated? Failure to integrate is something the host nation does.
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The Afro-Caribbean population does not rep. NOT strike me as well integrated AT ALL.
Germany too is integrating Poles well - but just about nobody else in more recent years, least of all Russians - part of the reason is the different migration pattern. It's quite hard to say where "German" ends and "Pole" begins. And part of the reason is that, back in the day, there was a conscious effort to integrate them.
In the US, Asians are being integrated so well they'd be in danger of being assimilated if it wasn't for the constant influx, while Blacks, four hundred years on, are basically back in square four or five.
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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,206
India


« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2006, 08:12:29 AM »

Aargh. And now "the last posting was less than 20 seconds ago". I had something useful to do when I came online. I wanted to post some stats. Now I spent - what? An hour? - on rehashing the same old arguments.
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Indeed, the more intellectual Islamists are usually of this class.
Part of the reason for THAT is they frequently have no other identity (apart from Muslim) to cling to, btw, unless the Sylheti peasant, not being comfortable with identification as "Pakistani" because in the days of the Raj their grandparents were in India, yet their parents grew up in Pakistan...
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Please expound. Why is it not (partly) an issue with foreign policy? Why should it be irrelevant that, for 15, 25, 88 years (depending where you want to cut off. 88 years is to the Balfour declaration, which struck me as the furthestmost I could stretch the logic to) Islamic countries or population groups have ever and ever again (not "always", of course. There's counter-examples enough. But frequently enough for people thinking it's "always" being an understandable - not more than that - reaction) been at the receiving end of bad British foreign policy, and that anti-Islamic stereotypes have been used, not necessarily by government but by mass media toeing the government's line, in the build up to each of these decisions?

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What exactly do you feel is threatened, and by whom? Be precise, don't use vague threatening words.
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To feel "threatened" by the fact that people practice their religion by answering a poll question certainly is.
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No contradiction at all, as viz. the entire history of anthropology. Tongue
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Uh, no. "Liberals and multiculturalists" did not frame Britain's, let alone Germany's, immigration laws. Not one whit.
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Again, you seem to be amazingly ignorant of Islamic history.
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Actually, most of them still do. This is because the truth of the notion is kind of hard to deny. Those among the western exiles who passionately hate the current regime and who like the Shah (who're mostly in the US) mostly liked the Shah when he was in office too.
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What is true, of course, is that Muslims (ie, the political center of gravity of Britain's Muslim community) are way more communitarian than the classical lefty ideology. Doesn't sound very alarming put in these terms, though, but definitely is not irrelevant either.
What I'm mostly seeing, however, is the same old sordid spectacle of one minority group seeing its goals being fulfilled and cancelling its alliance with other groups who haven't, selling its soul in the process.
At least the text avoids that hated word, "Islamofascism", that always makes me thing "Pot. Kettle. Black."
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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,206
India


« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2006, 08:17:07 AM »

secular, virulently anti-islamic, also anti-Christian fundamentalist creed of yours and Cubby's and some others' on the forum is just that, a political religion, and not a particularly likeable or peaceful one either.

Have you ever paused to wonder why? I, personally (and I make no claims that this isn't personal) stand to loose everything and gain nothing, if religious fundamentalism is re-established in the national consciousness. My freedom, security and in some instances my life, as someone who is openly gay, could be at stake. It is self preservation, and the 'preservation' of friends who are dear to me that is the reason behind that position.
True of course (and sometimes hard to imagine. How would it feel to be turned on by men, which was long illegal and is still hated by many? I've no idea... then again, I'm somewhat ephebophile, so maybe I can relate after all. Grin ) Take that as qualifying the harsh stuff I said about (certain) gays at the end of the last post.
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There is some truth in it...just not enough. Tongue
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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,206
India


« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2006, 08:30:21 AM »

The first of the Shari'a questions in the survey actually includes the wording "as in Saudi Arabia or Iran" - but then has a footnote that essentially contradicts this. Small wonder it's got so many "don't knows". Smiley
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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,206
India


« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2006, 11:50:51 AM »

Multiculturalism = completely useless. Either let in and assimilate or don't let in ast all.

Go away, you're spoiling an interesting thread Angry
He did point out that what the ...what word to use? Internal Nationalists? ... think of when they mention "integration" is actually assimilation. And forced assimilation is a very evil concept indeed.
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