Salvini vs. Rocket

[Velasco]

If you want a Muslim and African Italy (geographic expression only) that cares nothing for the Italian culture and history as it’s evolved for the past 1000 years than I suppose the pre-Salvini course was optimal for you (of course I’m not saying Salvini will succeed in changing that course long term).

This is a strawman and for two extremely simple reasons:

1) Neither Freedom Fighter Rackete nor anyone in this forum is advocating for a Muslim or an African Italy. We all love the Italian history, culture, monuments and cuisine... but not the politicians. Your claim is a tremendous absurdity,

2) With the current figures, despite all the scaremongering, there is no imminent danger for our beloved Italy.

The subjest of immigration is too serious, especially when we are talking about human beings who die and suffer, to be discussed on these demagogic grounds. Thank you.

[Absolution9]

If you want a Muslim and African Italy (geographic expression only) that cares nothing for the Italian culture and history as it’s evolved for the past 1000 years than I suppose the pre-Salvini course was optimal for you (of course I’m not saying Salvini will succeed in changing that course long term).

This is a strawman and for two extremely simple reasons:

1) Neither Freedom Fighter Rackete nor anyone in this forum is advocating for a Muslim or an African Italy. We all love the Italian history, culture, monuments and cuisine... but not the politicians. Your claim is a tremendous absurdity,

2) With the current figures, despite all the scaremongering, there is no imminent danger for our beloved Italy.

The subjest of immigration is too serious, especially when we are talking about human beings who die and suffer, to be discussed on these demagogic grounds. Thank you.

How is it a strawman?

Before 2017 Italy was getting 150-200k boat migrant arrivals per year.  That’s set against a back drop of a doubling of the population of the African continent between 2015 and 2050 and a roughly 10% decline in the native Italian population during the same period.  If that had continued, even without additional possible arrivals due to increased demographic pressure in Africa,  it would mean easily 8-10M migrants + descendants by 2050.  

That’s including significant family reunification for which there would be tremendous pressure based on the example set by Britain and other Western European countries.  No doubt you would support significant family reunification for migrant populations in, for instance, Germany and would continue to do so in the future in all of the countries in which migrants settle.

The period between 2050 and 2100 would undoubtedly continue to feature large scale migration.  UN estimates are for another doubling of the African continents population by that end year.  For instance,  Niger and Egypt are forecast to have 200M people each (they better have huge complexes of solar powered greenhouses by then as they are both desert/semi desert countries that will be hit hard by global warming), Nigeria 700-750M, DR Congo 350-400M, etc.

Under a continued  scenario of permissive migration that existed in Europe between 2012 and 2017 it is certain that the continent would be utterly demographically and culturally transformed by the end of the century. In my opinion not for the better, but we probably differ in that assessment.

[Velasco]

Re: Salvini vs. Rocket
Quote from: Absolution9 on Today at 04:42:00 am


How is it a strawman?

Before 2017 Italy was getting 150-200k boat migrant arrivals per year.  That’s set against a back drop of a doubling of the population of the African continent between 2015 and 2050 and a roughly 10% decline in the native Italian population during the same period.  If that had continued, even without additional possible arrivals due to increased demographic pressure in Africa,  it would mean easily 8-10M migrants + descendants by 2050.

I think you are mixing up figures. It's true that Italy received a large influx of people in recent years

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44660699

  While the number of arrivals has dropped in Greece, the number of people arriving in Italy showed little change until 2018 when it also dropped considerably. In 2016 and 2017, 180,000 and 119,000 arrived in Italy respectively, smuggled by traffickers from North Africa and rescued at sea. In 2017, Italy received 67% of the EU's migrant arrivals.

However, since January this year, the number of arrivals in Italy has greatly reduced, with 20,120 arriving by mid-September 2018.

In the same period, Spain received the highest number of migrants and refugees - almost 35,000 - the majority of them by sea and more than 5,300 by land to Ceuta and Melilla, two Spanish enclaves in North Africa.

The UN refugee agency (UNHCR) says that routes used by human traffickers are constantly changing and are dependent on a number of factors, but the drop in numbers reaching Italy is attributed mainly to its close co-operation with the Libyan coastguard.

It's important to take into account the significant reduction that took place in 2018, that must be credited to the effort made by the previous Italian administration and not to Salvini.

You are assuming all these people will apply for asylum succesfully and stay in Italy or other European countries. There are some graphs in the article showing the number of asylum applications and the total of succesful applications for the 2014-2017 period. In the case of Italy the applications were around 150k in 2015 and 2016, but the number of succesful applications in the same years is well below 50k. With these figures and taking into account the 1M of people with African background already living in Italy and the total population exceeding 60M... I'd say your projected 10M is scaremongering.

 Each asylum application is assessed on an individual basis. The process can take many years, and those who apply for asylum are given basic housing, food, education and healthcare.
At the end of the process, asylum is granted to those who can prove they fled war and persecution, while those who do not meet the criteria are refused asylum (...)

The governments of the EU countries have warned that those who do not have a legitimate asylum claim will be returned to their country of origin.
 

Reading the last sentence and looking at the figures, I don't see the asylum policy is so permissive. But you claim otherwise and make assumptions that I find... insidious

 Under a continued  scenario of permissive migration that existed in Europe between 2012 and 2017 it is certain that the continent would be utterly demographically and culturally transformed by the end of the century. In my opinion not for the better, but we probably differ in that assessment.

Human societies don't remain static and petrified in time. They are dynamic and are subject to changes. I have no doubt that Europe and the rest of the world will face cultural and demographic changes.  I don't know if they will be for better or for worse. The only thing I know is that human beings on this planet will face huge climatic and demographic challenges in the near future. Possibly we won't be able to find solutions if we can't work together. Honestly, the problems are so great that I find populists, demagogues and  racist scaremongers a bit annoying. Please stop saying stupid things: we neither want a Muslim invasion nor to destroy Europe. On the contrary, we love Europe and believe that democracy, tolerance and respect for human rights are among the best European traditions and they must be preserved. Thank you.

[Tender Branson]

Oh man, the woman has lost her mind:

Rackete demands admission of all refugees from Libya

German sea watch captain Carola Rackete has called for a reception of all refugees from Libya in Europe. "Those who are in Libya have to get out of there immediately to a safe country," Rackete told German "Bild" newspaper (Monday edition). "We hear of half a million people in the hands of smugglers or in Libyan refugee camps we need to get out. We need to help them immediately on a safe passage to Europe."

Rackete also called for a reception of climate refugees. "The collapse of the climate system provides for climate refugees, which of course we have to absorb," said the captain. "The food base in some African countries is destroyed, caused by industrialized countries in Europe." Europe can no longer say, "that we do not want people," said the captain: "It is also Europe's responsibility."

Rackete was arrested at the end of June on the Italian Mediterranean island of Lampedusa, after she had steered the rescue vessel "Sea-Watch 3" with 40 people on board into the port despite a ban on the Italian authorities She was released a few days later.

https://orf.at/stories/3130257

[President Johnson]

Oh man, the woman has lost her mind:

Rackete demands admission of all refugees from Libya

German sea watch captain Carola Rackete has called for a reception of all refugees from Libya in Europe. "Those who are in Libya have to get out of there immediately to a safe country," Rackete told German "Bild" newspaper (Monday edition). "We hear of half a million people in the hands of smugglers or in Libyan refugee camps we need to get out. We need to help them immediately on a safe passage to Europe."

Rackete also called for a reception of climate refugees. "The collapse of the climate system provides for climate refugees, which of course we have to absorb," said the captain. "The food base in some African countries is destroyed, caused by industrialized countries in Europe." Europe can no longer say, "that we do not want people," said the captain: "It is also Europe's responsibility."

Rackete was arrested at the end of June on the Italian Mediterranean island of Lampedusa, after she had steered the rescue vessel "Sea-Watch 3" with 40 people on board into the port despite a ban on the Italian authorities She was released a few days later.

https://orf.at/stories/3130257

Yes, that is the very defintion of insanity on refugee policy. We need better conditions in camps in North Africa. If everybody is just allowed to get into the EU, that would lead to a massive pull effect.

[Tender Branson]

Oh man, the woman has lost her mind:

Rackete demands admission of all refugees from Libya

German sea watch captain Carola Rackete has called for a reception of all refugees from Libya in Europe. "Those who are in Libya have to get out of there immediately to a safe country," Rackete told German "Bild" newspaper (Monday edition). "We hear of half a million people in the hands of smugglers or in Libyan refugee camps we need to get out. We need to help them immediately on a safe passage to Europe."

Rackete also called for a reception of climate refugees. "The collapse of the climate system provides for climate refugees, which of course we have to absorb," said the captain. "The food base in some African countries is destroyed, caused by industrialized countries in Europe." Europe can no longer say, "that we do not want people," said the captain: "It is also Europe's responsibility."

Rackete was arrested at the end of June on the Italian Mediterranean island of Lampedusa, after she had steered the rescue vessel "Sea-Watch 3" with 40 people on board into the port despite a ban on the Italian authorities She was released a few days later.

https://orf.at/stories/3130257

Yes, that is the very defintion of insanity on refugee policy. We need better conditions in camps in North Africa. If everybody is just allowed to get into the EU, that would lead to a massive pull effect.

All Austrian parties are against her proposal, even the Greens.

Tells you how utopist and naive this chick is ...

https://kurier.at/politik/inland/libysche-fluechtlinge-parteien-gegen-rackete-vorschlag/400551674

[Velasco]

Talking about insanity and conspiracy theories:

 "Former German spy chief causes alarm sharing far-right tweets"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/15/former-german-spy-chief-georg-maassen-alarm-sharing-far-right-tweets

  On Sunday Maaßen shared on Twitter an article from a rightwing extremist blog claiming that the rescue of a group of people adrift off the Libyan coast by the rescue boat Sea-Watch 3, and the subsequent arrest of its German captain, Carola Rackete, was in fact a “piece of propaganda” orchestrated by the German public broadcaster ARD.

The article likens a documentary about Sea-Watch 3 by ARD’s programme Panorama to the Nazi propaganda ministry embedding film crews on “Strength Through Joy” cruise ships, and suggests the film crew could have dragged the rescued refugees out to sea in the first place. 

Regarding conflict between the brave captain and the demagogue deputy PM, it's a relief to know that judges in Italy are independent. This aspect is extremely important in the present circumstances